Ever wondered how an educator's cultural background influences their approach in the classroom? Tune in to join us and our guests, Ahmed and Mohamed, as we traverse the intricate layers of singlehood, career in education, and the profound impact of our diverse cultural roots on our lives.
Drawn from our personal narratives, we engage in a candid conversation about the dynamics of friendships, relationships, and family, and how our unique educational experiences have shaped our current outlook. We delve into the role of religion in our relationships, the controversial concept of arranged marriage in the 21st century, and the profound influence of our parents' relationships on our perspectives about marriage and family. We navigate these complex topics with authenticity and sincerity, shedding light on the transformative influence of our upbringing on our interactions today.
In the concluding segment of our conversation, we venture into the intricate terrains of feminism, the 'red pill' movement, and the role of knowledge in life and marriage. Our candid takes on these subjects, coupled with our personal apprehensions, offer a fresh perspective on how these factors shape our relationships. Whether you're an educator seeking to connect deeper with your students, a singleton navigating the dating scene, or just someone intrigued by cultural discussions, this episode promises to offer valuable insights. Tune in for an enriching dialogue that promises to both enlighten and entertain.
Visit our IG page at https://www.instagram.com/dc_overcoffee/ to join the conversation!
Ever wondered how an educator's cultural background influences their approach in the classroom? Tune in to join us and our guests, Ahmed and Mohamed, as we traverse the intricate layers of singlehood, career in education, and the profound impact of our diverse cultural roots on our lives.
Drawn from our personal narratives, we engage in a candid conversation about the dynamics of friendships, relationships, and family, and how our unique educational experiences have shaped our current outlook. We delve into the role of religion in our relationships, the controversial concept of arranged marriage in the 21st century, and the profound influence of our parents' relationships on our perspectives about marriage and family. We navigate these complex topics with authenticity and sincerity, shedding light on the transformative influence of our upbringing on our interactions today.
In the concluding segment of our conversation, we venture into the intricate terrains of feminism, the 'red pill' movement, and the role of knowledge in life and marriage. Our candid takes on these subjects, coupled with our personal apprehensions, offer a fresh perspective on how these factors shape our relationships. Whether you're an educator seeking to connect deeper with your students, a singleton navigating the dating scene, or just someone intrigued by cultural discussions, this episode promises to offer valuable insights. Tune in for an enriching dialogue that promises to both enlighten and entertain.
Visit our IG page at https://www.instagram.com/dc_overcoffee/ to join the conversation!
As-salamu alaikum, welcome to difficult conversations where we tackle taboo topics in a safe space through empowerment and education.
Speaker 2:In today's episode we have two of young men, ahmed and Mohamed, who will be sharing their experience of being single in ways that they navigate or generally their peers navigate what it means to be single. We will be diving in those conversations in a lot of bed, but we first want to introduce our guest. Welcome to our podcast. What do you guys do for a living?
Speaker 3:My name is Ahmed. I came from Ethiopia. I was nine moved here, I went to school here, so I went to high school, here I went to college and now I work in school. I am 23.
Speaker 4:My name is Mohamed. I'm opposite of Ahmed, so I was born here. I was born in Atlanta, I don't remember how it looks. Nothing Then went, when I was like six years old, back to Kenya, grew up there. Now I came back for college in 2019. Just been living here ever since I worked with Ahmed, also 23 years old. We both work at a school and, yeah, just living life.
Speaker 1:What got you guys started in school?
Speaker 4:I never in my life thought that I was going to work in a school. To be honest, I still don't believe. I'm doing that right now. What?
Speaker 1:are you doing? What led to that?
Speaker 4:Nothing about passion, nothing about anything. I was at home. I was planning on starting Amazon. Then the same day, one of my friends just called me. He was like you want to start working at a school. I have a good school. We need your help. We're starting a school for the community. We're trying to help people out. And I was like, yeah, I can do it, no problem. So it just happened like that. Because you're helping your people, it makes you be there for a good cause.
Speaker 3:Similarly to Mohammed, I went to my major's kinesiology so I was going to go into PT health related. So I had no clue that I was going to go into education. Once I graduated I started working at a hospital, an ORA or something like that. It was like operation room job, liked it, surgeries, my thing. Then a friend of mine that works at a school calls me one day and tells me it's predominantly kids, East African students.
Speaker 3:Some of these teachers just can't handle teaching them. They were struggling to find teachers Because of the teacher shortages. There was like tier one license you can get to teach. So I went there, became a teacher for a semester and it was life changing because it was easier for me to connect with the kids, Even though what I heard about the kids is, oh, they're bad at this, but like when you go in there and you can relate to them, it's just different. So they weren't bad for me, they could have been bad for the other teachers. So it was just an experience that was just life changing. Being able to see a kid that you thought at first is just so bad. Now you sit down, you have conversation, you talk about sports and all of a sudden the kid is getting A in my class, so it was just I felt like it's a place to be.
Speaker 5:I can relate to that too, the idea of I also at some point worked in schools and the idea of people discarding kids oh, this person is just bad instead of actually going in, taking the time to get to know the kid, to get to know like why is he taking the way he is? Why is he making these choices? Or why is he or she making these choices and I think that's also what separates good teachers from not so good teachers. Is that extra time right and that extra effort?
Speaker 4:I also feel like it's like an accomplishment once you like change and everything, and they change because of what you figured out about them, or something you feel more accomplished than just working in front of a computer the whole day, or because they're human beings, you're changing them for the future or everything. So it's like the best investment ever.
Speaker 1:Especially for our community. Like you could be probably one of few role models that these kids have in their life.
Speaker 5:Yeah, even if you think about it, I think most teachers they don't understand that trust goes both ways, respect goes both ways. It's not like the old times where just because you're older you get to get respected. And students what I've noticed is that they understand authority and respect different. Like just because you're an authority figure, it doesn't mean you get my respect automatically. And then just because you have my respect, it doesn't mean you have authority over me. So like I don't think the older people understand that. They're like oh, I'm the authority figure, you should respect me. So I see how that clash often. How about you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I see it. There are a lot of African teachers that used to teach back home and they come to teacher and they always have a hard time because I think they think the authority figure they are is enough. But I feel like kids here are different. They care more about how you connect with them and not you as an authority. Like the culture is different. So it's like you being an authority does it mean you'll get those?
Speaker 4:Sorry. Don't you think that it's a little bit different when you're in a school like a charter school, community school, where there are different types of kids? There's some that came back all the way from Africa and also there's some that were brought up here, so you have to juggle between the both, don't you think? There's some kids that authority works with them and others are like you have to be friendly with them and like more respectful to them. That's how I think, because they're different.
Speaker 2:So it's like you have to really learn to meet your students where they are and go from there. But I do have a question what grades are you guys are teaching right now? Both.
Speaker 3:It's an elementary school, so the highest grade is just elementary school, fifth grade. So it's pretty young kids.
Speaker 1:How grade do you teach?
Speaker 4:specifically. So basically we're not like teachers, like for a specific class, so we're more of like all over the place, for example, ahmed's all over the place.
Speaker 5:Do you guys go sub in for teachers and such?
Speaker 3:Me not often because my job is different from teaching, but I subbed in for a gym I think it was last week for a period or two, because teachers shortage is sometimes you got to step in when you have to.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I sub in almost all the time and one day subbing in and you're like oh, they do this every day.
Speaker 5:It's tiring.
Speaker 1:So what would you say after like me being a parent and you guys are on that side of things what would you guys advise parents that are sending their kids to school?
Speaker 4:So many things Like when you're inside the school is when you know the problem is not only the student or the son or the daughter of that person, like they also take in what you take at home. Effort is not only the teachers, and sometimes also, once it's a charter school, decide with the person that's with you because they are your people. I'm one of the kids who are the same. We're the same people. It's not because they're like in a different race or something. We leave us sometimes. Trust us.
Speaker 3:In terms of, for example, like behavior. We serve predominantly East African kids whose parents grew up elsewhere. The way they want to raise their kid is different. It doesn't quite fit and I feel like the kids struggle and a lot of them resort to, for example, lying, because they feel like if they tell the truth about something, their parents won't take it well, and when we tell the parents, oh, your kid did this, the parents wouldn't believe it. So these kids have two personalities. They're one way at home.
Speaker 3:They're different at school. School is like a freedom in a way, because it's not so strict. Just love your kids. You cannot see parents giving their kids a lot of hugs just always. This mean looking face, smile at your kid. Have that bond with the kids.
Speaker 5:So what I'm hearing you saying is that if you don't give them the space back at home to be themselves and a little bit relaxed, then they will use the school for a space to relax and be themselves and or explore, trying to find themselves. So let me ask you about you guys it's like middle school, elementary school, high school experience how, what kind of student were you guys?
Speaker 4:Mine is too long. I have to go first.
Speaker 3:So early like life was mostly back home and I don't really remember much.
Speaker 5:Where is back home?
Speaker 3:Back home. I lived in the Oromo region, so I am Oromo, I lived in Oromia, and being a kid back home, I feel like it's just special, it's different, it's just a lot of fun. That's all I remember. Really, I don't know what school was like, and school here it was okay. It was different. I had to learn the language, obviously. I first went to a school that was predominantly white for six months. That was very different from a school where I ended up going after, which was predominantly like Somali student. I felt at home, so that was a lot more. It was good. It was an environment that I was happy being in and I think it turned out okay.
Speaker 4:I lived in a totally different upbringing. It's different from all the kids over here, For example, the high school. I went to crazy If I tell people over here that they say you should write a book about it or something. It's crazy. It's so different. I'm bored in school where you wear your uniform. It's separated from the whole city. There is what is it called Cops as the watchmen or the people at the door. You have to run everywhere. It's like a military school. Do a mistake, you get whooped, you get beating.
Speaker 1:All those are true. We always used to hear about those. Yeah, and that's not.
Speaker 4:The crazy thing is we were like 30 million students and each of us had a number, so it's like a car plate. That's what you're called by, even in the school assemblies and everything. Let's say you made a mistake. They call you 2300. Come forward. You come running forward and then you start kneeling on the ground. You get ashamed and then after that they whoop you. It's crazy.
Speaker 1:I'm telling the truth.
Speaker 4:When I tell these stories, people are like oh, this is like the 1900s stories and stuff. You should write a book or something Literally like everything. It's like it was bad. I thought, if you were bad, the school I went to, I think even the people in Kenya think it's bad.
Speaker 5:There's a reason why your parents decided.
Speaker 4:I asked my dad till this day. The thing is, I think what his goal was as a parent and what I think most parents should have as a girl not take them to this type of schools. But it is better to bring your kid to be good morally than educationally. So he wanted me to be hard in life so that nothing can be easy for me. I haven't known him very well. I take everything lightly, I don't take it as something that's hard. So I think that was what his goal was. Don't make everything that's going to be easier for you once you go through all of that. So I've been there for four years in high school Only boys in a locked up space on top of a hill somewhere. It was so bad Sorry, you were prison. It was prison Basically. It was prison. You got a four years sentence. I can sit here. I can sit here and we can talk about this for an hour, all different things, and you'll build every single story. I tell you guys, you're going to be shocked more.
Speaker 1:It made you the man you are today, Alhamdulillah look at me.
Speaker 4:I'm in America now.
Speaker 5:What? I'm free now mom, what about?
Speaker 4:I'm free at last. I'm free, land of the free.
Speaker 2:Would you change that experience?
Speaker 4:What I changed my experience. The crazy thing is I wish I had a friend. I wish I went back just to fight with some teachers I just get my payback. But what I learned from that place is, I think, the best thing that I've learned in the last four years. It changed me morally completely.
Speaker 5:Do you think it changed you for the better?
Speaker 4:I won't wish it on anybody I think how you can speak on this.
Speaker 5:I think it's like the potato and the egg kind of conversation the same water that pardons the egg boils the potato. So it's about the environment. The environment is horrible, but then I don't think the person that you turned out to be is due to the environment. I think it's because of what's inside of it that the environment helped create hard in it, because egg on its own, like it's- fragile on its own.
Speaker 5:But then when you put it in that environment, because of its makeup, its chemistry, even it turns hard, versus when potato on its own before the environment, it's hard. You put it in this hard environment and then it becomes mushy and soft. I think I wouldn't credit the environment for, however, your awesome personality and the awesome person you are, I think probably it's just you, because I could see that going so wrong.
Speaker 2:Like having someone being traumatized. That is true.
Speaker 5:So I guess I would follow that question by how were your connections and your friendships that you guys formed at school? How strong were they? What were they based on?
Speaker 3:My friendships from when I was younger elementary school back home. It was fun, but now I don't really know them or remember much many of them, to be honest, here. Most of them, I'm around because I went to the same school from beginning to end. So to this day we're very close. We're all just here. Just as you grow older, you don't hang out as much and you're not as close as when you were in school, where you just hang out every day. But yeah, we're still close and I'm still friends.
Speaker 5:You said you went to high school here, right?
Speaker 2:I did how does Boys in general in middle school and high school, how do you guys cultivate friendship in general? Because I think what you just say right now trigger a question. For me Is that, in a sense, that there's many people that you're no longer in touch with, and so how do you maintain those relationship as you continue to grow as an adult? How do you cultivate that Relationships?
Speaker 3:that's a good question. I think in middle school and high school I feel like it's pretty easy we all had same interests, we just happened to get the same school. We did the same things. So your friends Were your friends due to proximity and not what values you hold or what you believe or the way you think, and I feel like that's why, as you grow older, that numbers reduce to those who you share the same values and beliefs with.
Speaker 5:So when you were in high school, did you gravitate towards people that were out of our Muslim or African or anything that you have similarities with, aside from proximity?
Speaker 3:The majority of the school was Somali people, so all my friends were Somali. Yeah, so it's like where, but the people that I was, I guess, closer to where? People that played sports? And because that just kept us together. That's what we did after school, that's what we talked about in school. So I think, yeah, it was mostly whoever did things that I did or things that I would say elementary school.
Speaker 4:The back in Kenya we say primary school, so it's from first grade to eighth grade, because I liked the school that I was in. I had more friends and I used to keep in touch with them and everything, and until now I know a lot of them were not friends. But like when we meet each other or anything, we can talk to each other and open their stuff. But when I went to high school because I hated the place, I Don't want to talk to anybody outside of school, just reminded me of school. So when I went home and I use my phone when I come back to school, everybody's like why not texting us back? Why not?
Speaker 4:That does what's going on. I don't want you to guys remember to remind me of the school. Yeah, I don't like until today I think I only talked to one of my friends in high school. So I think that's the difference. Because of that, the ones in high school don't remember the name. Not because I don't want to remember, it's just I didn't like the schools, I don't want to remember anything about it to kind of segue it into our Conversation.
Speaker 1:So while going to school and having these relationships or connections with your boys through hobbies or whatever, what kind of conversations come up when talking about sisters, or do they even come up?
Speaker 4:sister, sister or girl High school, so in high school. Yeah, the thing is, I told you this.
Speaker 2:This actually Mohammed? You should answer that question to find those two, the girls and sisters. What does that mean? What is those two meanings?
Speaker 4:I only hear sisters one way in the musty. Does our convention or something? Sisters to the left, please? But when you're talking about a girl, never hear someone saying sister. I don't know, they just even among your boys, like you guys.
Speaker 1:My sister is like all that girl sister is a high level.
Speaker 4:Too much.
Speaker 1:Why? I only asked? Because I feel like when talking to a lot of African brothers right, african American brothers even like when I interact with them, like hey sister, like how you doing, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4:The thing I think about sister is when you're Religious wise, whenever you're talking about religion, that's where you see your sister a lot, because they respect that you give them. Is you don't see, you don't want to think about it In that, like the opposite gender way? That's why I think you say sister, but otherwise I don't think so.
Speaker 5:Wow, that's interesting. We have family. When you're talking about them from a space of religion? Yeah so you don't see them? We weren't. You are saying, like men don't see their sisters and their aunts and like their family members as the other gender, they just see them as family. So I think it's interesting how that fit like bleeds into this, because calling you a sister just automatically puts that respect and like that protectiveness and that family like perspective. But he's let's talk about girls though.
Speaker 1:Conversations about girls ever come up or?
Speaker 5:your brothers.
Speaker 1:So the high school comes up like how does it go?
Speaker 5:And be honest yeah.
Speaker 4:I'm gonna be honest because I did not like school and I told you guys like the high school, my friends. High school is so different from the Friends that I had in my neighborhood. The friends I have in my neighborhood have been friends with me for over 10 years, 14 years. We're like family now when we talk about girls, girls, so high school, these guys were Caged animals. They did not see girls in month, in a month. So even the tea that let me give you guys a story when we used to have tea in school, they used to add kerosene. It's a certain. What is it called? It's like an oil, it's like paraffin. You guys know paraffin. Yeah, so it's kerosene. They add some of it to the point that when you're drinking it, you see the kerosene sign shining at the top. Why the reason for this is to lower your desire For the opposite gender, because we're all men together, no woman. You don't see nothing. Some guys even started thinking about the teachers. They used to always, every time, they give us tea in the school.
Speaker 5:Give you guys, put kerosene.
Speaker 4:High schools, all high schools, never do that. Back there, like in boarding schools, they get to the point of doing that. So these guys, when they talk about girls or when there's like a function when there's girls that are coming, people go all wild and then the thing is Not friends to the other religion, but we're not a lot of Muslims. I think the Muslims in that school were lower than a percent, one percent. So out of thirteen hundred students were like 40 Muslims, 45 Muslims, so it's mostly non Muslims that are there. That's the thing. So when we were at a function and all these type of things, the men would be acting crazy. When they're talking about girls, they'd be talking the most horrible things.
Speaker 5:So I guess to just bring it back a little bit to the conversations that you have with your friends that are from back home, right at the school neighborhood yeah, the neighbors. How would a normal conversation about the other gender like? If you guys ever have conversations Like how, what would that look like? What do you guys talk about?
Speaker 4:Oh, like this or not like one more or a specific girl is for talking about a girl, when these days we always start with the conversation of a girl. Why don't you get married? What are you waiting for as a joking man? So once that brings up now, everybody starts saying oh yeah, I would have got married, but they're not. There's not. I don't see any girls like that do this. I want girls that do this.
Speaker 5:So that's where this conversation. What is this? You said I don't see any girls that do this. Oh, okay.
Speaker 4:So, for example, you tell one of your friends, oh, get married. And they say there's no girl. That's what they say. So they don't actually mean there's no girls and I think, but there's no good girls. And you're like, yeah, for what? What do you mean by this? They start like everybody has their sort of excuse. One of them says these girls back home, everybody, the standards are too high, because Over here what we have as a card, like you have a car, you have a house, that is normal, having a car, is like a phone. But they want to get married at this time you have to have everything. You have to have a car, the one, the guy, to have good money, and you're just 25, no employment in Africa. So that's what we usually talk about, these girls. They're also I don't know about America, but my friends, they don't like girl. That's all over social media and this type of stuff. Yeah, so they just bring up these type of stories. Those are a few examples.
Speaker 3:Everybody has their own for me, growing up here, I think once you hit like Middle school age is cool to talk to girls. So there's that social pressure to fit in, be the cool person. But yeah, like nobody talks about girls in a formal way. Somebody might say, oh, that's the girl I'm talking to or something. But like nothing, we don't sit and have conversation about their characteristics or who they are. It's not a deep conversation. But the opposite gender, this guy and her, are like friends. We're talking to her or something.
Speaker 1:So I feel like when I used to go in high school, there was this thing where, like Guys would be already talked to her, or did that happen?
Speaker 3:I didn't go to a big high school, so if you're talking to someone, yeah.
Speaker 4:My friends. They will hide it so much you won't know that they're talking to a girl because we were not so open when we're talking about when someone wants to pursue a girl, they will not tell you one of our friends who know I want to pursue this girl. They were hiding so much because they want no one else to know and what we know we start laughing at him or something. We take it as a joke. We got to the point of sometimes even some of my friends at one of our life teenagers. We used to lie. He one time, he one time. One of my friends told him to meet up with him somewhere. So it was that door. I said this guy was getting ready, take a good shower. Came to the musty, all prepared, looking good. Today all of our friends, all the friends, are like oh, what's going on? Whoa, why do you look so good? And the guy that knew was in the conversation, just watching him. Back home you have a car, people asking for car, can I have your car? I'm trying to go somewhere.
Speaker 4:So this guy was asking for a car everywhere to not get a car started walking to the girl with the neighbor. That the girl In quotes told him to me and tell me why the guy that was talking to him the catfish was walking behind him just laughing. So that's the thing when you're talking to a girl. I think my friends I don't know I'm not talking for all boys, but they don't want no one else to know. Yeah, I.
Speaker 2:Think there is that aspect of relationship when in middle school, girls are not always very explicit about who they're talking to. But I think I want to go back to the conversation around friendship, because I mentioned earlier that there is aspect of you are because you go to the same school, is notice is norm right, having girl as a friend or you want a title, that's friendship. But maybe they're dating. Is that something that you saw within the school that you went to and then it was normalized, is not much of like Taboo around it or accepting I think for the school I want to, it's very unique because everybody went there since elementary.
Speaker 3:They all grew up together, so it wasn't weird to talk to a girl in class. She knew her since like first grade, so it wasn't weird. So there's that dynamic where the teachers understood and the students understood. We're just like a home. It was a very comfortable place. No, because everybody went to the school from like when they were young. So I think it was a very unique place compared to other schools and that everybody knew each other to a very deep level and from like childhood.
Speaker 1:That Was very casual, was talk to each other in like a dating manner or just like really close friends.
Speaker 3:I think more like friends. Not a lot of dating happened. I know that if it did, it would be like some girl from another school or something. Everybody was so close that it would be weird to be dating someone in the school.
Speaker 5:So in middle school and elementary school. Not a lot of dating happened. In high school, if you were interested in someone, what did that person, that hypothetical person, or that real person, what did that person look like? And not physically, but their Characteristics and or who are you attracted to at the time? Or who are your friends attracted to at the time and how did that relationship Go? How did that courtship go?
Speaker 3:I don't have a personal story to tell, but I feel like from friends was Like a few of them, and they don't really talk about the process. You just like months later will know that oh, I've been talking to this girl, but it was. I don't think it was ever serious. To be honest, it wasn't for, like marriage. I know they were just talking casually, it was nothing serious.
Speaker 5:You're saying that you personally don't have any story If you're crushing on someone, or you in being interested in somebody. Come on honestly.
Speaker 3:Janice and Straight up, I might have seen a girl and say she, but no, I didn't have a relationship in high school.
Speaker 2:I Guess I want to go into that question about what are some challenges as a single young, facing young Muslim man. I wanted you guys to go in depth about that and tell us a little bit of challenges that you may experience, and Not just you, but even the guys that you know and within your age group, on as far as what other people are have misconception about you guys too as well in this process so Obviously, the first one is that a fitna in the shower that you have before you're married it wastes a lot of your time.
Speaker 4:I want a lot of like. When you're not marriage, you always be thinking of the next person or looking at the next. So it's helps a lot because we have even the hadith from I think I'd like not bus or mischievous Of what the prophets are advising you first you get marriage, so lot of some. If you can, then you fast. So you know that's a big effect for especially men like we're talking about with Ahmed.
Speaker 4:Once we're now the mall one time not a mall, just a grocery shop you see a Muslim woman that I told him if you're married You'll be looking at it. I have a wife at home. You don't have that stress. You're going to someone at home, but once you don't, it's very challenging and it needs a lot of strength because, you see it, even a lot of the guys that are not married I'm not talking about Alhamdulillah, me, alhamdulillah, I'm fine but they have that problem of Talking to so many girls like you see them talking to girls and all of that just wastage of time and lying, just that small thing brings up so many bad deeds.
Speaker 1:I think for us as women, like it's hard for us to wrap our minds around that because, first of all, we're not visual creatures and I feel like a lot of times when brothers are like okay, it's a constant thing. We don't understand it.
Speaker 4:So just touch upon. She's like a big, is very big. This is to the point that I think this is a very what is it called? Controversial. But we I think men Don't even go for money and all this stuff most of the men because they want it. It's about the woman, or the bringer. I need to do this for the woman. Our first thing that comes in the mind, I think, is that what I'm. It says Do you know the nas hood musha, what mean? And he's a. The first thing it's so strong, to the point that Marriage will save you, like we said it did. Again, half of the Dean finishes like it's so strong. So once you get that hardship out of your way, like everything else is gonna be a little bit easier. That's what I did. Hardship was.
Speaker 5:So what I'm hearing you saying is that when men are not married, they are consistently bombarded by fit. Now I guess my follow-up question what makes that person special? What are the characteristics that would make that person special for you to get out of this fitna world and be Settled down and have that woman in your house?
Speaker 3:I feel like it Formed over time. Now I know what I'm looking for, whereas before I didn't really just go with the flow. I don't think I became serious about marriage, like from the beginning. There was a time where I became serious. It's a time prior to it where I was a serious and I think Right now, like I have a very good, very clear thing that I look for. There's three main ones. Number one for me is religion, and that could be vague, so I have a Scale by which I measure it now. And if you were to put a line, put zero on one end, five on the other if zero is.
Speaker 3:This person is like absolutely Not practicing at all. And then five is there a whole five. They have all their Obligations down. If you tell them to give a lecture, they would have no problem. They have it all. I would put it out to read, which is all the basics are covered, they know what their obligations are and they're trying to get better. I feel like that's where I fall and that's the minimum for me to after.
Speaker 3:That is Like compatibility, that one that's more to it. So compatibility with the person, compatibility with the family and with the culture. And and compatibility with the person is to know your values. Can you get along with them? Are they same goals? This is a person that you can talk to. You feel like, oh, this is like my person.
Speaker 3:And then the other one is compatibility with the family. I think this one is big because a lot of people have Problem with in-laws and I just wanted to be able to go to my own house and feel at home and feel comfortable, like somebody whose family I think I'll get along with. And then, last in that category is compatibility with the culture, like for me, for example, one that have to be plaque Right and then they have to be East African, because I feel like if you're not compatible with the culture, the family thing will also not align. So there's a whole bunch of things that wouldn't align. It's not because I hate the other cultures is just. This won't work. Last one is finances. It's just how they think about money, what money means to them. My goal is to retire at 45. So it's like I don't want somebody working against me my whole life.
Speaker 4:Oh, Almost the same, but the only difference I'll make is the first, and I don't know why he did not speak of beauty man.
Speaker 4:If not same as religion. There's a certain imam, ahmed bin Hamer. He said something very profound, very smart. All of us, men or women, we usually say we're looking for religious religion first, religion first, which is I don't say it's alive, but he said instead of looking for religion first For men, look at beauty first. So once you say beauty first and then she meets your standard of beauty, then you get religion is not a hundred percent. You're gonna be dropping her because of the religion, which is good. However, if you say you want religion first and then you see the person not beautiful, you're not gonna be dropping her because of the religion. You make you look like a bad person. She has a religion, she has everything, but now she's not beautiful. So that that thing is like very profound.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad you said that, because that's a lot of things that I talked to people about when you come to this conversation and I think a lot of people shy away with that. Physical attraction matters very yeah especially men.
Speaker 4:Oh, I don't know. My friends back home they say I'm gonna be waking up to this person, look at her every morning, so but it's not like you're what you're looking for. Yeah, because everybody's a beauty, beautiful in their own way. Everybody finds someone. So that is a very big aspect for men with visual creatures, as she said. So that, and then the Dean once she knows her rights and your rights and Vice versa, it makes everything so much easier because our Dean is not only a religion, it is our way of life. So everything comes in the family, everything. So this is the same thing as him, just the beautiful, I know he wants to say it.
Speaker 4:So there's that. And then in the end, obviously is Always look like mirror stuff. We find us Men, I want a good thing, no one knows me, I might leave and get beat up or something. We always say I want this and then you look at the person you're like, look at yourself. So always mirrors of like your perception of someone is supposed to be a reflection of you say that again.
Speaker 4:People need to hear that yeah, your perception of someone is supposed to be a reflection of you, like how, if you want someone before you get married I think that's my biggest excuse. That's what I say before getting married, fix yourself what you need to do, especially religiously. Make yourself at least where you want your wife to be Marriage wise. I want my wife to be a father. For example, I'm reading the Quran, like understanding the Quran, so you can be at that level, so you know what you're looking for.
Speaker 1:I have found a good woman will not look for someone that's playing around With other people, so that's the thing I think a lot of times, though, brothers, they'll I'm like the sisters they will aim high, and you'll see some brother who, like, really isn't, has nothing To bring to the table, he still wants a princess.
Speaker 4:That's the thing. Yeah, that's what I think. Always look at yourself first.
Speaker 1:My follow-up question would be so, coming to this list that you've made for yourself, was it due to life experiences, or was it more through knowledge that you've read about or learned?
Speaker 3:I think for me mostly both both experiences and I feel like I've a lot of friends that are married, so they're always dropping wisdom, so I think I picked it up and piece it together so it came from both both loved experiences and also not being around people like Mohammed and other people that are already married, which is very helpful. So I recommend, if you're not married, be around married people.
Speaker 4:Don't tell you the truth. I'm experienced because our families are a lot of our parents and our folks, a lot of them, are not divorced Of our time. Alhamdulillah, all of them are together. So I think Experience wise. I have no idea. Knowledge Maybe I'm plus, maybe experience of the like later ages, but I don't know. Experience and knowledge wise.
Speaker 1:So when you say family, is that like? You saw the relationship between your mom and dad and you wanted to emulate that, or I'm speaking for myself.
Speaker 4:Our families, our moms and dads, are not that openly Affectionate expressive towards each other. I don't know. We grew up like that. The dad will be the dad looking for money, the mom takes care of the kids. Yeah, they don't talk to each other. You know, I've seen my mom and dad like having a nice conversation of them, like being Nice and affectionate to each other. It's very hard, but I don't know.
Speaker 5:I want to follow that up. Seeing that and growing up around that, how does your household your future household, inshallah look like? Would that be similar, different? What would you take from your parents and what would you leave behind?
Speaker 4:That's my mom's gonna come after this, my dad, lahi. The thing I'll keep is Olahi, the strength they've been together. Again, ola, is very hard 20, 30 years for parents to be together at this time. It's something that doesn't come to mind. That's the first thing that I'm gonna do, all hardships. They are there. They are there for the kids. They are there for each other. They don't show it emotionally, but they show it in a different way, like the dads, emotion-wise is providing for the family, always bringing money, food to the table. I think that's what they do back home.
Speaker 4:What I will take from them is that they've been together, so that's a good image and a good perception you'll have. As someone that's not married, I want to be in this marriage forever. That's one. What I would not take right Sorry, abu, I will not take from them is again the affection when you show kids how you're supposed to treat your spouse, how you're supposed to help them in the house. I've never seen my dad in the kitchen. I've never seen him in the kitchen. I think I've seen him once or twice. Maybe try to get in the back door. So there's that. Once you show that like how you're supposed to help your mom. This will make the guy for Somali guys. Allah. Today, I'm telling you, I'm going to get in big trouble. Somali guys, you never see them. They don't know how to cook. The only time they get to know how to cook is when they start living on their own.
Speaker 1:But they know how to cook in the restaurants.
Speaker 4:Yeah, because they live on their own. They came from Kenya by themselves, no one, so there's that You'll not see them in the house, including me. Right now one of my sisters are in the house with me back in Africa. I don't help them wash the dishes. So I think once you put that image in your children's mind, they will do the same. They'll respect the wife and the sister and the mother.
Speaker 2:I think even in psychology, I think one of the things that we stress to speak to parents when it comes to conflict resolution is, if you're going to start something in front of your kids, make sure you finish in front of them too, so that way that they get to see the examples how to resolve conflict. Or even the same thing that you're saying is like in the kitchen gender roles and responsibilities Example is how that kids learn right. And if you do that, you don't have to even explain to your sons and your daughters. This is what it's supposed to be when they're seeking out, looking for their spouses, for example, and so that way that there is that understanding.
Speaker 2:And I think a lot of people shy away from those conversations that you just mentioned because they had reservation. Maybe I'm going to be not looking as men to say I want to help my wife, I want to be able to contribute in the other ways too, Not just the way that I was told culturally to do it, Because, even going back to our Dean, like Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, he helped these wives. He did what he could to be able to. I know we all use this example right Like example is he's the best example. So he helped his wives being a leader outside of the house, having a full-time job, which is a leadership.
Speaker 1:The hardest job, exactly.
Speaker 2:And the only thing that's left of the home is still also being able to do the work that we're helping out of his wife and, I think, our culture there's a question that I had with this, which I'll bring it up later is that sometimes our culture has that control all over us where it makes it so hard for us to let me dissect our culture, because I don't think it's helping me religiously. You know what I mean. I don't think it's helping me to grow Islamically. What I wanted to elevate too, and so to have that mindset right now, before it being meeting your wife, it helps that the conflict that you're going to have to avoid. These are the things that I'm going to avoid, because I know it didn't work in my house, but I don't need to bring it to my new house that I'm going to be in, so that's all I wanted to add yeah, it's the culture thing.
Speaker 4:I think for Somalis we kept the culture and the deans so intertwined you can't tell them apart now. So you'd be like, ah, this is the dean, this is not the dean. And you're like no, it's not. Where is the proof? And they're like don't talk back at me, I'm older than you, you think that's a very like. The culture and the dean is good to separate them and know the difference.
Speaker 5:Ahmed? What about you? Where did that your list? Where did that come from? Is that seeing your parents? And if so, then the same question that I asked him, which is what would you take from your parents' relationship and what would you leave behind?
Speaker 3:I think my parents' relationship has changed over time. Obviously there's a period where I wasn't old enough to notice, but it changed over time. Right before Muhammad said it was very much my dad did all the going getting the money. Really there was no affection Dads is always out type of thing. But now it's like much different. They're more affectionate, especially after, I think, my youngest brother was born. There's periods in their lives I think that changed things just for the whole family and for them too. And I think that's like my little brother being born and I felt is when the affection started. Know, everybody's a hugger.
Speaker 3:Now what I would take is, I think, more of that, keeping the affection and closeness together. And also, the thing that I admire the most, I think, about my father is how he resolves conflicts. I've never heard them curse at each other or at us or curse at all. To be honest, when something comes up, it's like you wouldn't say it. Then he would wait till we pray a shah and then he would just say everybody sit down, then we'd just talk about it no.
Speaker 3:And then we'd just resolve whatever conflict or whatever came up. So I think just it's not very loud, it's very peaceful and formal in a way. So I think that's something I would take.
Speaker 5:What kind of conversations do you guys wish they had with you about the other gender?
Speaker 3:More recently they talked about what I should not specifically like a formal conversation where they sit me down and say, oh, you should look for this, and the wife. But they would describe what they want for me and I know it comes from a good place and sometimes it doesn't always align with what I want, but I know the intent is good.
Speaker 5:What do they say that they want for you?
Speaker 3:I think it's like mostly she's the same ethnicity as she is, she fits culturally, she'll be good to you and good to us, and it's very kind-hearted and like very simple. It's never like a deep conversation.
Speaker 5:And what do you wish that they had conversations with you about?
Speaker 3:Like I mentioned earlier, it's those inflection points like where things changed. We never sat down and talked about like why things became different after those life events. For some I was there, I feel like when my mom got sick and stuff that changed, the helping around in the house that completely changed. Now everybody helps with everything and I guess I saw that happen. But I'm sure there were other inflection points that they would talk about the conflicts, but they wouldn't talk about like how they changed as a result of it or there isn't a deeper conversation around it.
Speaker 3:There was a period of time that was like difficult, but I'm sure it has changed, but we don't talk about how it changed them individually.
Speaker 5:If you feel comfortable, do you want to, just for our listeners, so that they can have a more clear understanding of what the change was from to? And then, like what was the change from to? What was the initial situation? We don't need to know the details, but what was the initial environment like? And then what was the later environment?
Speaker 3:When we moved here from back home. I think it was a very stressful time for my mom. She came and she was pregnant with, like the youngest brother, and I think it was just hard for her because everything was different and she was just going through a tough time and we didn't understand what she was going through. There was no family around. She didn't have aunts or cousins or her mom around, so it was a tough time for her and we didn't really know how to help her really or understand what was going on. And I feel like that was a period of time and somehow, after that period of time, my youngest brother was born. Things changed. She was much happier. I wish we could have a conversation about that middle. What changed? I know like things changed, but really how they processed it.
Speaker 5:So you feel like at some point your mom might have been a little unhappy or dissatisfied and then she became happy and satisfied. Can I ask you what's stopping you from asking that question?
Speaker 3:It's just in an African household it's very difficult to have deep conversations and it's like when conversations come up, the kids don't initiate it. They would bring up something. You would hear about it, it's just.
Speaker 1:It's taboo.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it just doesn't happen and, to be honest, I didn't really think deeply about it until like recently, when I was reading the questions that you guys had. I'm like yo, this is something that I didn't really think deeply about.
Speaker 2:Because of this experience that you saw in your household. What I'm hearing you when you're talking about this is like you felt that there's something off in your family system, but you just couldn't put your finger on it. And then you saw the change. That's when it was like oh okay, I can finally see the light, because there was some sort of clouds already happening, and now the light is happening and now we're good. Because you said that we are in African community and we don't talk about our issues and we tend to just ignore it. Yeah, how would you make those different changes for yourself?
Speaker 3:I think in, I guess, my family, inshallah. I think it's to be more open and use our words with how we think and how we feel, and just be more attentive of what the person is thinking with the going through.
Speaker 5:So, just to bring it back around, I want to ask here are the things you mentioned, things that you learned and your household, or you saw in your household and that you wanted to take, and then you are going to leave certain things behind.
Speaker 1:What's the dating scene like?
Speaker 5:What's the dating scene like?
Speaker 1:Or is that even a goal right now for you two?
Speaker 4:That's the thing. I don't think I see dating as no, you don't see dating once you're like I'm planning.
Speaker 1:You can go to the muslims, write your name, give it to Sheik. I thought about it.
Speaker 4:I think I'm too traditional and too playful at heart. I can get to the point of arrangement.
Speaker 5:So that's where you are now.
Speaker 4:Yeah, as long as there's a time that you reach for an age where you're more serious and you're there for the marriage. So once you are real with the person, you don't think of dating and all this type of stuff you think of. I want to marry you. So let's talk about the good stuff. Let's talk about the planning to do. What's your face on? How do you look at marriage, even arranged marriage? Once you know it's arranged marriage, you're going to talk about marriage. So that's the good thing.
Speaker 1:Instead of playing around it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I think the dating. I've never thought of me getting a wife as dating. Maybe that, I don't know, I'm going to get it, but I don't see myself as getting one from, for example, social media.
Speaker 1:So you would be open to a service I will be open to it.
Speaker 5:So what does that service look like? Let's say, for example, because we're I'm trying to understand arranged marriage in the 21st century or like in America. Right. The chances are the kind of girls that, not the amount of girls, I should say the amount of girls that would want to have an arranged marriage is very small, so how would that? Or my perception is small, I would disagree.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I disagree.
Speaker 4:That's crazy. I thought it was small too.
Speaker 1:No, I disagree because I feel like a lot of people are just fed up with the whole system and it's not working for a lot of people. With the whole social media, you don't know who to trust. This person could be catfishing you. It could be a man dressed up, you know.
Speaker 5:You know, you know my friends, that so what would that system look like in arranged marriage? I'm guessing you're not talking about our grandfather's idea of arranged marriage. So what would your idea of arranged marriage look like For?
Speaker 4:arranged marriage is as possible, because if you want to get married and you want a perfect marriage, if your religious person would think of I want to do it the right way and if I do the right way, it's going to end up the right way. We need to think of it that way. You want to do it as you look for a way that the Dean is supposed to, how it's supposed to happen. So I won't be on social media. Maybe it'll be someone that I met at university. Whoever is there?
Speaker 1:Wali.
Speaker 4:Wali, you go, what do you think of marriage for you? Like, straight up, I don't want to waste your time. Same, you have a friend that will tell you I have someone over here. Just like, the easiest way, it's not hard. I think we made it hard for ourselves and I think I don't want to make it hard for us. Made it hard for us. I have to know the person for six months a year. It has to be this and that, so that I think weighs a lot of time and people that go through that I think go through a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like, not even just Muslims, even like non-Muslims. I read this book, modern Romance, and there's like a whole rules and stuff like that. Like you text a girl, you wait 30 minutes to make sure that she doesn't think that you're thirsty, it's just all of that.
Speaker 5:Ahmed, what about you?
Speaker 3:I don't think I've ever intended to date as in like just talking to someone. It's always been with very specific intent for marriage and all the conversations that happen around marriage yeah.
Speaker 5:So let me just dive a little bit and then, when you get uncomfortable, let me know. Let's pick one and think of one of the person, past relationships that you were talking to, for the sake of marriage. What were those qualities? You said, okay, I see these qualities in this girl, specifically this girl, and then this connection that we have. And then why didn't it work out and what did you learn from it?
Speaker 3:There's one specific case and I feel like this was part of me having a clear idea of exactly what I wanted. But I knew vaguely what I'm looking for and that person I felt like our values aligned, our goals in life aligned, so everything you would want to align seemed to have aligned. But they were of different ethnicity and at that time that wasn't a problem really. I was East African. Everything seemed like it was going to work out and very quickly we knew okay, this is what we want. We wanted to get married was what we wanted to do.
Speaker 3:And the girl her dad, wasn't really around like he, so I couldn't really ask for her to tell her mom this is what my intent is and I would like to speak to her. And the mom said, okay, she would like cool, I'll talk to him. So I'm like great. And then a few days later I'm like okay, when can we do this? Then the mom says no, this is not gonna happen. And I was confused because just a few days earlier she was open to talking to me and now she wasn't.
Speaker 3:And what we thought happened, or what we know happened, was that Mom start calling home family, friends and they start Talking and now it's no longer what she wanted. It's also what the family wanted. It's like this is person of different Ethnicity, your first daughter marrying to somebody out of the ethnicity who was. All of a sudden there was that change up. I get the pressure and yeah, obviously the intent was marriage and it looks like marriage wasn't gonna happen. And if it was to happen, because I could have just went to her dad and if her dad was cool technically you should be fine. But I don't want to be in a family where I Mom doesn't like.
Speaker 5:That would be fun and my understanding is that this people are Muslim.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the only difference of the ethnicity and, to be honest, we attempted again that we pushed the mom. We're gonna really fix this, and the more we pushed is like the more stubborn she got, it didn't make it better. So if I would advise anyone, if it's we're speaking to someone of a different ethnicity, go to the parents as soon as you can, because it will save you time. Women don't have as much agency as they think they have in marriage. Unfortunately, they just don't decide, so go to those who decide For them influence their decision.
Speaker 5:So let me just push a little bit more, not necessarily on that situation, because I feel like this was not in a problem within. Can you think of another situation? Maybe that wasn't that. From the situation looks like you both were on the same page. It was an outside factor. Was there a moment or another situation where it was inside factors that were a problem?
Speaker 3:There wasn't any Other that got to that point. It's the more recent people I talked to. It was like, after I've formed what I'm looking for, so it's pretty straightforward, like it was very quick, so kind of. It wasn't as hard, so I can't think. But I can give you an example. It was one person that happened to the I think in. Illinois and everything Was gonna work out. But she doesn't see herself living in a different state, like she wants to do where she wants, and I see myself Living here long term.
Speaker 3:So, that was a deal breaker. Thanks, like that.
Speaker 5:Do you have any examples or stories that you thought about marriage with a person that you thought about marriage with?
Speaker 4:I'll give it the most simple white answer, the white person answer ever I'm working on myself. Never, I don't think I've ever had like this plan of getting married yet.
Speaker 3:So I'm just listen. He thinks he's not ready, but everybody else around him thinks he's ready.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think I'm still not ready.
Speaker 2:honestly, I don't want to waste someone's time, so yeah, my question is that is there a timeline for both of you where you feel like, okay, it's time for me to actively looking, because right now what I'm understanding is that you guys are open-minded to meeting people if it worked out, and Then actively looking? When is that timeline?
Speaker 3:at this point in my life, I guess, actively looking. Yes this is a good place. I think it's about time. It's my hearing.
Speaker 1:How do you prepare for that?
Speaker 3:I feel like for me, it's been mostly like talking to people who are married people like Muhammad that I have good advice is even though they're not married. So I think it's mostly people who are married. To be honest, I think I'm relatively young and I'm in no rush to get married, but I'm around a lot of people that are married, that do Push me, that are more convinced I'm ready to get married than I am, and I feel like Other people see you better than you see yourself sometimes.
Speaker 5:I have one question. It's not necessarily for you guys, but like in general, for I'm gonna ask you to speak for all Mandem in the East African community and the Muslim community when do you think is like the time? This guy needs to get married by this time, because I feel like there's that thing, that expectation with girls. And then my second question is what do you think girls misunderstand about guys the most?
Speaker 4:I've been raised in Africa, kenya. I Think the time that you know that this person is ready is when they finally have a good job. So once that person has a good job and if that they're done the schoolwork and all this stuff, so I think that's the time that you know this person. Everybody starts pushing you to get married over here. I think it's once you're done it's college, I think. So I think it's easier right now. Well, I'm doing America. The good thing about America right now is a lot of youth are getting married back home. It's harder. You don't have the job, you don't have the car, you don't have. It's harder, so it'll take a little bit longer. Yeah, what I think?
Speaker 5:a Perception that a girl's have a girls have about guys very hard.
Speaker 4:I have no idea. I think that this is dangerous, though I think Girls who tend to have bad experiences with Guys from the past Tend to rub it off on their friends or other girls. So they say you don't do this to. They say men did this, and then you're sitting on the sofa eating chips. So, like that, one bad experience from this certain girl will affect almost everybody. She's like talking about men that do this, did this. So I think the girls will listen and they'll. Let me look for another one now what I think the perception of one man that did this to you is like all of us.
Speaker 3:I think so too. It's like you hear a lot of generalizations, guys that like this or guys that like that.
Speaker 5:So I, mohamed, say but we asked girls about guys and they said that guys tend to be not as emotionally invested. Do you guys think that's correct? Or they tend to not only care about the physical Appearance of girls, or so on and so forth.
Speaker 3:I think it's generally true. Men are not as emotionally invested.
Speaker 1:There's this whole debate online about feminism and like how it's seeping into our Muslim sisters and like their thought process. I'm going into marriage and stuff like that. Is that something that you guys think about when talking to sisters or and stuff like that? Is that a fear?
Speaker 4:It is To an extent, to a point, because the good thing is, men, we tend to feel like we have good power, like we can have the choice of like more. It's more open for us. You can choose this, you can choose, so it's easier to know. But it is a fear because it's very vast right now. It's, even if it's not everything that speaks on feminism or supports feminism. It's like these small aspects.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's one of the big conversations that go on to is all over it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if it's like, if.
Speaker 4:Everybody's checks.
Speaker 3:If the girl seems nowadays. I might be generalizing here, but it's like when a girl goes to a big college, you have that fear. Is she one of them, was like one of who.
Speaker 5:What is that your definition of a feminist idea?
Speaker 3:It's At the very basic level of what feminism is like. Equal rights, I get that. But when you push it to extent where the line between a man and a woman is blurry, that's where I think my problem comes in. And I guess the far less left feminists are also intertwined with other groups that I don't really associate with or don't want to associate with. So that's what I'm talking about when I say is she one of them? And this might be controversial, but if on her profile she has, she her to me. That kind of scares me because I don't know what it means. It could be, but yeah.
Speaker 2:I think we talked about this in our previous episodes, where we talked about in our religion, islam is always focused on balance, right and the conversation about feminism. And then there's a red pill of conversation where the men are also doing similar, same right, the girls are doing this and the men are doing this, and where this specific fitness happening between the two genders and the confusions are happening, the misunderstandings are happening, but then nobody's talking to each other to clarify those misconceptions except I believe this and I believe this. And now, the same way that you guys have reservation about the girls and we also have reservation about the men. Now, because are you from the red pill community too? Does that make sense 100%? So that type of stereotype where you don't know the person, you don't know their stories, and usually all this comes from a place of pain for men it came from because he got rejected somehow from someone from the girls is because she felt that she was powerless, somehow from somebody in our household made her feel so oppressed in some ways.
Speaker 2:I'm talking about the feminist conversation in Muslim community right now, not the extreme feminists. So what that happens at that point is that, because of this pain that the both are experiences bringing into the relationship where Islam is not the front anymore. This conversation is where it became a fit in a conversation and I don't think a lot of. She has an understanding of the psychology of how damaging this is and they're not taking step back to evaluate what's happening and try to clarify those misconception and said they're like, oh, these girls are feminist, she has this, no, this. You are just making an assumption. Ask her question. And also, what is Naseeh? Naseeh has done very calmly and like behind the scene, not publicly I'm seeing it so much and he's pushing a lot of people from Islam.
Speaker 5:Both sides, I think also. First I want to ask you guys your take on the red pill, because you guys mentioned your take on feminism. Do you guys feel like you're being misrepresented by this group? And then also I want to ask when you see that word feminist, do you ask questions? Or do you say I say I'm a feminist and then they disagree that I'm a feminist because I don't fit their definition of what a feminist is? Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:I think the red pill movement is much bigger now and it really doesn't represent the majority of men the same way that what the type of feminist that out there doesn't represent the majority. But I feel like for a person looking to get married, you basically have to go on like generals. I can sit and have a conversation with everyone. I feel like we all have some flags we display in a way. Right, you wear a hijab, you have a long beard All these represent to some degree our values and beliefs and as humans, you can't really have a sit down with everybody. And if, as a person looking to get married, like I, look for the flags that represent me, who some believe that I'm looking for but I think there are extremes and like for, I guess, general to for people to be able to understand each other and live in harmony, those conversations are important and not to generalize. But I think, specifically for looking to get married, I think it's a little different.
Speaker 4:If we speak of what is being talked about a lot right now, it's just I think I support what you're saying because I think it was at this point. I said this to my friend one time we should just drop the phones and everything, just get on the battlefield and men versus women.
Speaker 4:Because it's coming from hate from both sides. See girls just by, just to go against what they're saying. Same, vice versa, men doing the same thing. So it's very wrong. That's what I think. And the crazy thing is the Sheikh, sheikh Artaymin. He said the Quran itself does not speak anywhere of equality, always speaks of justice. Why do you want to be equal? But the men? I think the men are doing the same thing too. Like now I'm being petty because if you want feminism, I'm going to do this to you, like why You're not a woman and she's not you. That's the thing I think we should put in our mind.
Speaker 1:I think that's a strong point when you say the thing about equality is that feminism or red pill, at the end of the day, we have a sharia and Allah that Allah has brought down for us and we have to push back a little bit on these notions and these movements because we're never equal. So, as a Muslim, you cannot be a feminist point blank period. As a Muslim, you can't be red pill point blank period.
Speaker 4:We have this perfect. The person that made us made this perfect law for us. Why do you want to try and do this? It's not even you. You don't have a beard, you don't have a hijab.
Speaker 5:I think it comes from what you said earlier, which is the intertwining of culture. Culture does so much damage to the religion because most people I don't want to say all people, but there are some people that are not as educated within the deen, about the deen. Some people they read the Quran phonetically, they don't know the understanding, they don't have a deeper understanding of the Quran and hadith and so on and so forth. So I feel like the culture specifically I'm going to talk about even the Oramal culture and my experience with Somali culture there's a lot of patriarchy, there's a lot of misogyny within the culture that rubs elbows with the faith. And then these men I'm going to say men because men have been ruling these cultures for a long time these men have weaponized their religion to fit their cultural perspective and their cultural dominance. So when women say, specifically when East African women say, I'm a feminist, I'm not speaking for anybody, but they're mostly just asking for their rights that was already given to them by Allah. Does that?
Speaker 1:make sense. But then say you're a Muslim, then why you have to tell? Say you're a feminist.
Speaker 5:But they also say and then also I mean that's.
Speaker 1:I'm going to pause that because that's a different conversation.
Speaker 5:That's a different conversation, but I guess that's what I'm trying to say anyways that normally when East African women say I'm a feminist, they're saying or specifically, east African Muslim women say that I'm a feminist, just like me, we are asking for that was given to us by Allah. We're not saying we're equal with men. We're not saying we know better than men. We're not saying any of that. We're just saying there's some certain rights that I have that's ordained to me and I feel like my mind, my capacity, the way I operate is valuable. Does that make sense and has value? That's different, but that's of unique to its own.
Speaker 4:But don't you think? I don't think anybody thinks of when they hear feminism, thinks of it that way.
Speaker 5:That's not Say it louder, no, because I have these debates all the time we can talk about this later.
Speaker 1:I feel like we can talk about the feminist and red pill thing all night. But just summarizing what we came here to do and we wanted to be a little bit more educated as the young Muslim men how you guys navigate marriage in this day and age, and thank you so much for sharing your experiences and stuff like that with us. What would be one thing that you could leave as advice for somebody who is looking to get married or actively trying to pursue that?
Speaker 3:I think for me, based on my experience, is first know what you're looking for and then, if it's different ethnicity, go to the parents sooner than if it was the other way around. It will save you time. So that's all I have.
Speaker 4:For me. I think it sounds very cliche, but knowledge as we're Muslims in the end of the day well, the knowledge of the Deen is very important. Once you have that, I think everything else opens up very easily. I think that's the problem that we have, not only in this part of it, but in every part, even in social media aspects and how we speak out of we just speak for the sake. So I think once we have that knowledge, again, the Dean is everything. So when you have that knowledge of the Dean, you have the knowledge of marriage and after marriage and how you're supposed to treat that Like. The knowledge of the Dean is so perfect that once you have that, I think that's the most important. Not to sound cliche, but that's it.
Speaker 2:No cliche is necessary, so I just want to say thank you so much to all of you, thank you so much to my co-host. I think we all did an amazing job. It's been an amazing conversation. I've learned a lot about the genders that I don't know much of, which is male gender, and I think another thing that I'm going to take away from this today's conversation is understanding what you need, and focus on your religion until you perfect that. Don't go out there trying to waste somebody else's time, and if other culture is not something you're into, if you are, make sure you go talk to the family first, and so that way you at least know where you stand with that person and yourself in the whole process of getting married. And so this is a difficult conversation. I just want to say JazakAllah khair into the Muhammad and Ahmed.
Speaker 3:Wa'iyak wa'iyak. Thank you for having us. This was good.
Speaker 5:Yeah, good, thank you so much, so I go now.
Speaker 4:Wa'alakum salaam wa rahmatullah.
Speaker 1:Join the conversation in the comment section or on our Instagram page to share with us what you think. We do not have all the answers, and our biggest goal is to kick off and get the conversation going. May Allah SWT accept our efforts and use us as catalysts for change.