Navigating the minefield of marriage requires more than just mutual affection—it demands respect, trust, and understanding the psychological dance of ego and validation. This episode doesn't just skim the surface; we dig into the reasons why some partners may seek approval from outside their union, and how this pursuit can erode the foundations of a once-solid relationship. Our discussion also casts a critical eye over the pitfalls of overpraising one's spouse in public, exploring how such actions might inadvertently invite jealousy and temptation from others.
We examine how friendships can either fortify or fracture a marriage, and what happens to those left in the wake of unfaithfulness. We confront the tough questions about character and infidelity, echoing tales from the Reddit trenches that highlight the ongoing struggle against negative influences like Shaytaan. But it's not all about the struggle; our episode also extends a hand of support, providing resources and advocating for the power of open, educational dialogue.
Join us as we offer solace and solidarity to those grappling with these challenges, reminding everyone that they are not alone on this journey.
Visit our IG page at https://www.instagram.com/dc_overcoffee/ to join the conversation!
Navigating the minefield of marriage requires more than just mutual affection—it demands respect, trust, and understanding the psychological dance of ego and validation. This episode doesn't just skim the surface; we dig into the reasons why some partners may seek approval from outside their union, and how this pursuit can erode the foundations of a once-solid relationship. Our discussion also casts a critical eye over the pitfalls of overpraising one's spouse in public, exploring how such actions might inadvertently invite jealousy and temptation from others.
We examine how friendships can either fortify or fracture a marriage, and what happens to those left in the wake of unfaithfulness. We confront the tough questions about character and infidelity, echoing tales from the Reddit trenches that highlight the ongoing struggle against negative influences like Shaytaan. But it's not all about the struggle; our episode also extends a hand of support, providing resources and advocating for the power of open, educational dialogue.
Join us as we offer solace and solidarity to those grappling with these challenges, reminding everyone that they are not alone on this journey.
Visit our IG page at https://www.instagram.com/dc_overcoffee/ to join the conversation!
As-salamu alaykum, Welcome to Difficult Conversations where we tackle taboo topics in a safe space through empowerment and education. The information on this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional. Mental health advice.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to Difficult Conversations. Today we're going to talk about failures in marriage and what are some of the biggest things that people are really shy talking about it, which is earlier, I think, we talked about finances, but in today's episode we want to talk about what is cheating is like in marriage and how can one know and what are the conversation around that and what are we, as a Muslim, like in our community? Talk about it. I think we it's more revelant, revelance, prevalent, prevalence, prevalence that's the word prevalence than we think we are, um, especially with the level of the social media exposures, um, so many different accessibility to do it, um, and I think it's kind of talking about that conversation. So I want to, first and foremost, ask you guys what is your understanding around cheating and how do you have those conversations with your spouse or with yourself, or with your community of support systems?
Speaker 1:I think, for me. I feel like cheating is not just, you know, having an intercourse with somebody else a snatcher a husband or a wife. I think there's little things that we don't consider cheating. It could be, like, you know, emotional cheating, you know, looking at other people that are not your spouse. So, basically, when I think about this, I think about the ayah, when Allah SWT says don't get close to zina right.
Speaker 1:He just doesn't say don't do zina, it's just don't even do things that lead to it. You know they don't do zina, they just don't even do things that lead to it. You know, and you know, it's like the gaze, the talking to people that are not your spouse in a way that violates that sanctity that you've created with your spouse.
Speaker 3:So for me, all those things are things that I tried not to engage in. I mean, for me too, the cheating it's not just physical, it's the emotional, the. You cheat with everything. You cheat with your ears, you cheat with your eyes, you cheat with your body, you know, physically, you cheat with your mind, you cheat with your behavior. Right, I quit cheating with respect, like I feel like, if you are disrespecting our marriage, like in with like, for example, you know, adi, nama, adi, amma, they have this thing called work wife and work husband, where they're like kicking it out at work and like sharing your intimate um married life detailed problems with this specific person.
Speaker 3:That's, that's cheating. You know you are violating our sacred marriage and the things that are going on and you know, in our marriage to not a therapist, but someone that could have some, you know, like there is like that that could lead to something else, when you become sorry about this.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, I'm so excited. So so I was watching this video, okay, I have to go. I was watching this video, um, okay, I have to go. I was watching this video and I think I don't know if we mentioned this on a previous episode. So there was this guy. Did I tell you about this? Did I tell you guys about this? So there was this guy, this lady, she was working at like some kind of firm or something, and then there was a co-worker. Was it on an episode or just in general?
Speaker 2:No, we just had a conversation about it, okay.
Speaker 1:So the co-worker, the co-worker and she was new to their farm or whatever. Like, oh, like, he just started falling in love with her, okay.
Speaker 3:They're both single.
Speaker 1:No, it seems she's married, okay, and her husband works at a different firm, okay, and um, so he like cracked up this whole thing and he had a friend at the husband's firm. So then he started, um, you know, spurting out rumors that he, him and the muslim girl were having an affair, and he created this whole story trying to uh get her divorced from her husband. So, husband, you see, he believed the whole story it's a reddit story.
Speaker 2:It was a reddit story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he believed the story and they had problems, blah, blah, blah and all that stuff. So I'm just happy he didn't kill her.
Speaker 3:That guy sounds like a psychopath. Who the the guy spreading the rumor?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah. So anyway, he puts this reddit up and he's like oh, you know, I'm the cause of her divorce and I don't know what to do with myself. Like now, I'm a gansengalina and he felt shame and guilty, so now he's looking for empathy yeah, go go get yourself a straitjacket.
Speaker 3:That that's what you need.
Speaker 1:So that just popped in my head, because this whole thing, about work wife and, like you know, mixing with the opposite gender and stuff like that will let you realize the wisdom right of our like values and you know certain ethos and certain values that we hold as muslims and how that like that protects you from so much. You know what I mean. And working in, like having working in professionally or whatever we see these things so often, you know, especially um the whole work wife thing and it's just, it's so so, so, so, so normalized. It's so normalized.
Speaker 3:And it's not, it's not healthy. Or you know, for example, like I've said this in the show, like multiple times, that I see like relationships with men and women differently than you guys. Like I have more, I've had more guy friends in my lifetime than you know, girls that are friends Right, right, um so, but even with that, I can tell you guys a story of like me working at a specific um school district where I was, you know, an admin. Like I would see these two um counselors one is married, one is single, and me and like this other guy that's also part of admin. Like we would be like would you be comfortable if your husband came to work and this is how he interacted with his coworker? And they'd be like, no, it's not, this is so.
Speaker 3:And everybody was convinced that something's going on because you can't be that close and not have an emotional attachment and they'll call each other, not just work wife, work husband, but they'll be like, oh my god, he's my brother and he's I'm like I don't, I don't touch my blood brother like that, not someone else's husband, you know what I mean. Like I don't talk to my blood brother like that. That's weird. Um, I think having that is. That is like because, guys, I think some guys, um, most of the time they think intercourse as cheating. They don't think scrolling on instagram and clicking on some girl's booty is cheating. That is the gateway to cheating, because the minute you allow your brain to be okay with looking at some girl's body and admiring it, that leads to another door. Right now, let me just talk to her, let me just be friends with her. We're just friends. I'm not doing anything. You know, you've let shaitan in, yeah, you've let shaitan in, and then you go, you go and then, before you know it, you're there and you can't come back.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean and I think also the idea that, like, the wisdom of it, not just keeping your eyes, your gaze, lower when you see the person in person, but when you're talking about that person, when other people are talking about that person, and I, you know, even for me, like when I was driving here for this episode, I was kind of like in the car talking to myself about it and I was like I'm really protective of my marriage and I don't know if this is like.
Speaker 3:I don't ever want to like talk about marriage and stuff like that out in public because you don't want people to be like, uh, you know, like, let me, let me. Because I used to be so naive, I used to think people wouldn't go out of their way to test shit, like, but no, oh, this girl's husband is so cool, let me go find out for myself. You know there's that thing. Or like this girl's wife is, this guy's wife is. So you know, like, and it's don't don't overly praise your relationships, because envy is there, envy's there don't overly like talk about so like someone could be, oh mashallah, he's a good person.
Speaker 3:But if I'm like, oh, he's so handsome and he's so smart and he's so kind, all of the sudden, the things that I'm saying about the stranger- is gonna start to start imprinting in my brain and then I'm going to start comparing that person to my husband.
Speaker 3:And then my husband obviously he's the real person. He's real 100% of the time, versus this guy is a figment of my imagination and he's only showing me what I want to see. So I'm going to be like, oh, this is better than this, so I'm going to go here. So I think, even when you're complimenting people I'm very generous with my compliments with girls, but with guys mashallah, he's good. He could be Brad Pitt when he was 20 years old and super hot. I'd be like he's good.
Speaker 2:Good Mashallah, move on, it's keeping. I good, move on, it's keeping. I think it's good to have discipline right and what you guys are talking about is disciplining yourself and one of the things that people don't understand about shaitan. I always say this shaitan is the most. If you want to learn what patient looks like, you have to be working with shaitan and to understand what that is, because he's very meticulous about any aspect of especially the relationship, about marriage. He loved divorces, he loved breaking relationships and I think sometime I'm gonna try to push this on.
Speaker 2:Men and women do it too, but specifically with men. For them, is is visualization about everything. Everything is visual, everything. The way that some. It's specifically right now, the accessibility that I was mentioning earlier access of online dating, access to Instagram, access to social, different type of social medias that already available, access to things, because sometimes the conversation you can feel like when something might not be going like in your life is changing, kind of a little bit like let me see what's out there, right for them. It's like let me just I'm not gonna do anything about it, I'm just gonna see what's out there. Even that idea is a shaitan.
Speaker 3:You know, actually the idea that men are visual is a little bit misleading, and not you, but there's that concept that like, oh, you know if I'm just good looking enough. The thing is also, I was kind of when we were talking about this topic, I was doing research and like listening to like a lot of interviews of like whatever, whatever men that are married and that cheated, and the thing is that men are egocentric, like they are driven by their ego, their manhood. They want to be the leader of the house, they want to be valued, and the minute they feel not valued and I'm not saying this is the wife's fault, I'm just saying this is the reality of the situation when they feel like they might be, for example, they might be the earners, the of the house, and then all of a sudden they're not anymore like because they got laid off this hasn't done to do with the wife, but like this is life right, and then all of a sudden the wife is coming, going, having to go to work, and like coming back and bringing them, and then now their value they feel their value, you know decrease, right. So they go to find someone that sees like that, that doesn't know them. At their best. They're an opportunist. They're an opportunist, right. So they go and they go to. They are always attracted to that person that makes them feel the best.
Speaker 3:But no matter how great of a wife you are, you're not going to be able to make your husband feel his best 24-7, right.
Speaker 3:So because you're living in the real world where there are kids running around and you're like dishes that need to get done, there's bills that need to get paid, but this side chick or this other person, she only sees him for what? 30 minutes an hour, two hours. They can live in that honeymoon space for years because she's not consistently getting his real 100 self or her real 100 self. So in that space people tend to value they, they. You can make that person feel like the center of the world. She can make him feel like the center of the world, the center of the universe, the most important, smartest, big, best person in the world, for two hours without feeling drained. The wife is not going to be able to do that 24 7 because even if she does it for two hours, for the eight hours she might be distracted with other things, and that's probably a lot of other things going on too, though you know what I mean in her life, um, and in their personal relationship.
Speaker 1:I think you, when you are in a relationship, you, I feel like it's hard, it would be hard not to realize when there's a certain shift or when there's a certain um change in dynamics, and I think, as a couple, that's where you have to be super hyper vigilant in terms of, okay, what changed, you know, and how can we bring this back, um and have that conversation?
Speaker 3:yeah, and I think also a one thing. I actually I saw this video yesterday, um, from this tiktoker, and she said it best. She said I don't want a guy that's a nice guy to me. I want a guy that's nice. I don't want a guy that is like um, that fears that. I don't want a guy that's like kind to me or that's a good person to me. I want a guy that's god fearing. I want a guy that's a kind person. That way it's not conditioned on you being and doing certain things for him, for you to get the best version of him or her. You guys are not the only people that cheat. You know you can flip that into the best girl, the best you know that fears allah is exactly one of the biggest things.
Speaker 2:The biggest thing yeah, the person fears allah, regardless of if that person, if your wife is present or if your husband is present, you won't do anything I think that's what I was trying to get out earlier is the fact is that the work of Shaitan is very meticulous and very plan-orientated and specifically around when I was talking about image and the access, is that Shaitan works in very selective.
Speaker 2:Like you look at it, you're like I'm fine, and then next time the thought doesn't go away. It's going to constantly repetitively happen and you're like, okay, I'm just going to do one more. Look Right, that idea is what kind of the gate of it, if we're going to specifically talk about religiously perspective, is like shaitan works very patiently and even though you have the loyalty to Allah, you also have to fight your nafs and shaitan. Right, and that understanding is the biggest thing. If you have done the work of you saying I have a nafs that is going to be against me and then I also have to fight shaitan and those tests is for you to figure out how you can kind of manage it and be disciplined about it.
Speaker 1:And there are certain things, like you know. Say, you're having shahawar or you're having um hard time with your nafs or whatever. If you're single, then you're recommended to fast.
Speaker 2:You know which will right, which will help with. Same for married too. Yeah, if you're having the struggle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when it comes to if you're married, I think it's a lot easier, like if you have those thoughts or have you know you have your wife there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, I mean, you know, just to go a little bit further, right, right, I think when you, when people cheat, they are not just cheating for physical no physical interactions. They're cheating because there's something missing within them, within their marriage, and that is, if it's a girl or if it's a guy, either they're not getting the emotional support that they need, that they're not getting the physical support that they need, that they're not getting the physical support that they need, the physical intimacy that they need, the emotional intimacy that they need, either they're not. Something is missing that make. That's making them stray, right, and again, that's not the other person's fault, necessarily all the time, or you know, it's the union, the something in the union is cracking. So when you, how, you, how do you notice?
Speaker 3:That is that, for example, what, how are you prioritizing your marriage in that list of things, in the list of your to-do list? Right, where is that at? Okay, I have to take care of my kids, I have to take care of my, my parents, I have to take care of the house, I have to take care of the bills. Where is your marriage? How? What are you doing to take care of? Because, if you, I have to take care of the bills.
Speaker 3:Where is your marriage? What are you doing to take care of it? Because if you eat junk food all the time and don't go exercise, you're going to get big. That's logic. One plus one equals two. If you are avoiding spending quality time with your husband and your wife, then your marriage is going to feel like roommates eventually, mates eventually. So, and also what? What when you think of being and I am, I'm really trying to be very cautious about like how I speak, because it's a very sensitive topic but marriage is just like any other relationship, in the sense that the more you invest, the more you get. The less you invest, the less you get, and then, at the same, time exactly and the surroundings around your marriage impact your marriage just like any other relationship.
Speaker 3:If you are surrounded with friends, if you have friends that are single, for example, or if you have friends that are married but they're very, very toxic in relationships, right, that are like oh hey, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna do this with so and so, and then I'm gonna come back and cheat you. Cheating is gonna be normal in your mind if you have friend, if you have a single, uh, friends, and they're like come on, hang out with us, go out with us, party with us, you know, and then when you're out there, they're not protecting you, right, and they're. If you're out there and they're like oh, you know, be my wingman. But to be a wingman, that means you have to entertain someone else. They're not saying, oh, he's not good, I'm not available. It's not just you saying I'm not available.
Speaker 3:Your friends have to say you're not available. Your friends, even if you look at a girl too long, your friends have to be able to check you. Yeah, like, you know what I mean. You have to have those friends. But if you are having friends, oh, you know, your wife is such a blah, blah, blah. Your wife is so naggy, your wife is so this, or your, uh, your husband is so this, yeah, your husband. And then they're talking negatively about your wife or your husband. That's gonna sink into your brain too. So your circle dictates how sometimes you feel about your marriage too.
Speaker 1:So I think, let's I want to transition until we only have a couple minutes left or so. Um, what advice do we have if, say, you are cheated on and it had happened? Um, and you notice, or somebody comes and tells you hey, you know, I think your husband or your wife is cheating or doing such and such. How would you guys navigate that conversation hypothetically? I would say always therapy If you feel like this is In the moment, though like okay, say you just found out right now.
Speaker 2:I can't talk about hypothetically. I'm not really good at that, I don't.
Speaker 1:I'm yeah'm not really good at that, I don't, yeah, it's really hard for me to imagine that scenario and kind of talk about like, you know, maybe you two can, but I don't know. You go ahead. I think I would first talk about it, you know, and be like, yeah, and at least be like, ok, because you can't, because people can be shaytan as well, right, and they can come and be like, oh, you know this and this and this, so at least give him the benefit of doubt and be like, hey, you know, I heard such and such um, maybe you didn't hear, maybe you saw that way there's like no shaytan, no other people, there's no other, it's not other people telling you shit.
Speaker 3:It's like you saw or you found evidence on your own so that way, what do you?
Speaker 1:do, still confront, still talk, still be like okay, what happened? What happened?
Speaker 2:I don't know. Do you know? That's the answer. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how I got there.
Speaker 3:I don't know, I fell.
Speaker 1:I landed right on her.
Speaker 2:Honestly, like what did you— I can just imagine that conversation with you and your husband, right? I want you guys to imagine that conversation, actually, because I can't imagine my future, because I'm very excited now. Imagine that conversation. How would it go, knowing what you know about your husband right now and you having this conversation with him? God forbid, god forbid, ever this happens to both of you. But knowing that this conversation happened, how do you think it would go?
Speaker 1:Okay, what happened Explaining? And then, if I'm not satisfied, you bring a third party in on both sides. And then he was like what?
Speaker 2:What would he say?
Speaker 3:What would satisfy you Like. What about his answer?
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know.
Speaker 3:No, I don't think I would, initially I don't think I will talk. I think I will retreat Because for me, and again I don't think I'll talk. I think I will retreat because for me, and and um again I don't want to, but for me in my situation right now I would go into what went wrong mentality.
Speaker 3:It's like, okay, where, what did I miss? What did I miss? Not self-blame, necessarily. What was going on in in our universe to, like, change the course of this person's personality, who he is, to a point where he's going down? He went down this route, like, where, where, where did I miss it? Right, like. And then, because, like I said, you marry, you, the person that cheats is the person you married. They don't, like you know what I mean, unless something, yeah, yeah happens it's.
Speaker 1:It's those habits that, like you, can't you, they don't develop it out of thin air.
Speaker 1:So you're like regardless of like because when I was looking through this. So they're like oh, you know, there's different types of why people cheat. They can be opportunistic, they can be um, the romantic that um still loves his wife or whatever, but then, you know, has too like, is it love with somebody else too, or has an ex. That you know they haven't forgotten, blah, blah and all this stuff. But in all those scenarios it's like you don't you've already had that in you. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:You don't just develop that in the, in the relationship are you guys saying that there's traits within a person that makes them to be a cheater? Definitely?
Speaker 3:100 once a cheater, always a cheater, at least that's interesting if you have, if you like, if you don't fear god, if you don't have value on yourself, if you are too egocentric in the way that you think you. It won't happen to me like. There's this quote and I always apply it to everything in my life which is from maya angelo. She got it from an african proverb which is I am a human being and I think human is alien to me, which means that if a human, any human being, does something, I have the capacity within me to be able to do that thing, no matter how destructive or constructive. So if any human being, any girl, any man, is able to cheat, I am able to cheat too. That way, I have to just guard myself so that I am never in that position where I am. I'm tested, so I just make sure that I don't have an any.
Speaker 3:I have clear, cut boundaries no access to anything like that and if you don't think, if you think that, oh, I'm too good to cheat, I am too kind, I'm too you know, whatever and it kind of goes back to the hyper vigilance.
Speaker 1:You just have to be hyper vigilant, you have to be hyper protective of you.
Speaker 3:And also it goes back to respect, right, you do you respect yourself? Do you respect yourself to not ever put that label on you? Because first it has to start with you, right the cheater. Like, do you respect yourself to not ever be called a cheater? You can call me whatever, whatever, but you won't call me this. Yeah right.
Speaker 2:I like that you put it back on the individual, regardless who it is. It's the respect and discipline and aspect of that that you're doing to yourself. Is that worth it for you to do something like this?
Speaker 1:And I think having that it makes it a lot easier and I think even that idea of like there is a neat trait of a person that I have to digest that a little bit. But I think it's like why you don't agree, or it's not that I don't agree.
Speaker 2:I think you haven't thought about it like, I haven't thought about it like that, and but I also think that a human being can make a mistake, because, based on um, there's a small uh stories that I want to tell and that kind of maybe validate. What I'm trying to say is that there's's, you know, there's a story about a story of a very significant scholar during the Musa, and where two brothers were traveling and then they left their sister with him.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, the abbot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so something like that can happen because of Shaitan's work, right, I'm not going to always say blame on Shaitan. You also have to work on your character as a person and explain that story for the people who might not know. There's a story about this scholar, who is a very practicing religious person, where two brothers are going to go off to war. I think and correct me if somebody knows this story, but anyway, this Alim, right, he worked really hard. He's lived far away in kind of seclusion and respecting, like worshiping, allah, and then two brothers left this girl and this girl is staying in the house.
Speaker 2:At first, this scholar, when he's watching this girl, he left the food very distance at the gate of the door at first, right? So shaitan came to him. How can you leave a single girl by herself without no protection and why would you let somebody else see her come out of her own house to grab that food, right? He's like well, okay, in that case I should move up a little bit closer, but she's still going to come out. People are going to see her. You're supposed to be her protector, right?
Speaker 2:This is Shaitan telling him that. And then slowly, slowly, slowly. I'm'm gonna make it short, but this man get closer to this girl and he does have an affair with this girl. And then now shaitan tells him the brothers are never gonna leave you alone for what you just did, right, because he's shaitan's been working so much on this man and then you gotta have to do something about it. And then the brothers and this man not the brothers, this man murdered this girl because now and then she's also pregnant at the same time. Now he's like what are you going to do with the body? They're going to find out. You did this. So the man buried the woman and the baby pregnant, but buried her. But when the brothers came back from this war, they ask about their sister and they say your sister died. We don't know where she is, but she's gone, or she died or she's gone.
Speaker 2:But anyway, the two brothers both had similar dreams about their sister and they know exactly where she was buried to. And then they found out that the man did this. And so the man now is afraid of what's going to happen to him. The shaitan says bow down to me, otherwise I'll forgive you, right? And the man did it. He bowed down and then now like, can you help me with these brothers because they're going to come kill me? He's like well, I got what I needed, so good luck. Even I fear Allah. Even I fear Allah. So good luck, deal with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so that's what I'm saying. Shaitan has a way of meticulously working on people to commit to specific things, and I'm not I'm not negating Shaitan only, but as a human being, you also should work on yourself, your loyalty and self-respect, so that you'll be able to respect the relationship yourself and the relationship as well. So this conversation, it is something that needs to happen more often. So this conversation, it is something that needs to happen more often and I think we just again did a surface about this conversation and it's something that in deeply, like any other educational aspect that you can do for yourself, is to take the time to learn about this area as well, because it happens and, in this day and age, a lot more people writing their stories on Reddit and talking about it, and which is why we brought it to here too, to talk about about it, in a sense, because we hear so much from other people as well.
Speaker 1:And then there are resources available to you. Don't feel like if you or anybody you know are experiencing this or going through this. There are resources in the community and people that you can go to to talk to them, but just don't feel like you have to suffer alone in anything. So, this has been.
Speaker 2:Difficult Conversations.
Speaker 1:Join the conversation in the comment section or on our social media pages. We do not have all the answers, and our biggest goal is to kick off the conversation and get it started. May Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala accept our efforts and use us for catalysts of change.