We learned a lot from our interviews with the college and post-college guys about their experiences with dating and courting. From discussing gender disparities in relationships, to shedding light on how family, religion, and culture shape our thoughts about love and companionship, we’ve got it all covered.
We also touch upon the double standards surrounding secrecy and judgment in relationships, a topic that needs to be addressed more openly, especially in Muslim communities.
Join us as we talk about what we learned from our interviews.
Visit our IG page at https://www.instagram.com/dc_overcoffee/ to join the conversation!
We learned a lot from our interviews with the college and post-college guys about their experiences with dating and courting. From discussing gender disparities in relationships, to shedding light on how family, religion, and culture shape our thoughts about love and companionship, we’ve got it all covered.
We also touch upon the double standards surrounding secrecy and judgment in relationships, a topic that needs to be addressed more openly, especially in Muslim communities.
Join us as we talk about what we learned from our interviews.
Visit our IG page at https://www.instagram.com/dc_overcoffee/ to join the conversation!
As-salamu alaikum, welcome to difficult conversations where we tackle taboo topics in a safe space through empowerment and education.
Speaker 2:Okay, one of the things that I wanted to kind of touch base on regarding our conversation that we had with the boys is that the high school boys they talked about. Something that really stood out to me the most and I'm starting to notice that even in the mosque too, as a Duksi teacher myself is the idea of how much pressure in dating in middle school and high school play a huge role. And one of the things that one of the guys said was that sometimes pressure doesn't have to be directly explained to you. It can be just done by observation that you have of your peers in your class. And so he talked about how he was dating and the reason why he actually even opened that gate.
Speaker 2:It started first as two people, friends and end up to be a serious relationship where he decided that he wanted to take it serious and he doesn't want it.
Speaker 2:To do things is not for marriage, he doesn't want it to date anymore, and that relationship ended and it had an impact on him. And I think I've noticed that when it comes to just young, impressionable boys and girls in this conversation, is that I don't think the conversation about not to date or date is like not really talked about it. I think he also mentioned that that's not the conversation that he had at home. He doesn't even know what that would look like, but he knows for the fact that Islamically for him because Islam is so big in his life, that's the significant role that it plays for him in his life that he knew that he's doing the wrong thing, he's not supposed to date. So he had that guilt overtaking. That's one of the reasons why he ended, because he's like I really don't want to do this because, even though I like this person but I don't think I'm doing the right thing.
Speaker 1:If that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I wanted to talk about that pressure. What is the impact of pressure on the young boys? Because, based on that highlight, I think they're not having this conversation among themselves. And what does those pressure looks like for each individual person and I think even Bonnie said in the same recording is that pressure is the things that we are watching and seeing, and then it's also like the thing that you desire, that you have within yourself, and paraphrasing it that's not exactly what you said, but something like that. I just wanted to ask you guys what do you guys think about that and what would that look like when it come to young boys trying to have that experience of dating and now eventually in college, I think?
Speaker 1:peer pressure. Remembering me in high school was a big thing, and one of the things that our conversation with the young boys showed me is that they're dealing with the same peer pressure that the girls were having, that everybody's doing it and you don't want to miss out or whatever. So you dated. So, yeah, that's what I got from that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the pressure is similar but a bit different. I feel like guys they pressure each other to be players. They value the guy that gets a lot of girls right, even the guy one of the boys that we talked to. He said you know he grew up with a lot of women in his life so he tends to have a lot of platonic friendships with women.
Speaker 1:And I found that very interesting. How, like sorry to cut you off one of them. He was saying like oh, you know, I don't have that experience and so when I do talk to a girl it's basically romantic. And the other one was saying I have a lot of friends that are girls, and so did you think that to him they're just friends, but to the girls might be interpreted as something else.
Speaker 3:Even in that interview I was saying like I totally understood where he was coming from and I related to his experience a lot because I was the other the flip of the coin where when I interacted with a boy, I never saw it as romantic. I saw it as friendship, because I grew up with a lot of boys and being friends with boys and brothers and so on and so forth. So for him it's so easy to talk to girls because he doesn't have that pressure of like I'm trying to impress or this is going to go somewhere, or he's just wanting friendship right. Which is also why the girls' gravity towards him, because he doesn't exude that I'm trying to get you energy, you know. And he also has empathy and he understands women and girls and his age better than his friend because he spends a lot of time just being human with them. And which is why I always encourage people I know it's hard to be friends with the other gender and everything but I really do encourage people, especially when they're younger, to be friends, to not like romanticize everything, just like be platonic friends At some point in life. That platonic friendship is not going to make sense and is not going to be sustainable, but until it can be, until it can't be, be friends. That way you know how to communicate, you can empathize, you can see them just as another human being that wants the same thing as you do.
Speaker 3:And one thing I really appreciated from that conversation with high schoolers was the understanding that there's two dynamics. Sometimes girls project what they're feeling onto the guys, and he said he doesn't know how to talk to girls, so he would just be sitting next to a girl and he would just like not say anything, and another girl might see that like, oh, he's just arrogant, or he doesn't you know, like, because that's the projection, right, he just doesn't know how to talk to you. Or she might try to start a conversation and he might answer with one word responses because he's very introvert and he doesn't have the social skills or the same communication skills that he has with his buddies, which is why normally boys are two different people with girls and guys.
Speaker 2:I think he does have the understanding of the conversation, but I think sometimes there's so many guys from at least what I'm getting from that conversation is that they're so reserved or overthinking how this should be going, how this is. Because that's the difference, because they're two different people and they are opposite of each other. The way they were thinking about this process of like girls and boys and the one that's a lot more quiet and he's much more reserved in it, but he doesn't know how to do it. And now I think he said that he did have a relationship where he's like kind of you know, evolving and getting to know himself and how to talk about it, but then eventually it came to like well, I don't want to date for the sake of dating, and they also came to that terms.
Speaker 2:The difference between the conversation with them and the college that's nice men are the fact is that here they have the experiences Like they were really open and vulnerable about like hey, look what we've done. And I think another thing that I would really want to mention is the fact that they were courageous enough, especially for the boys that are not community. They don't even talk about things they shared that this is what we go through. Here's the glimpse of our world and have a better understanding. This is happening in middle school. Whether you're like it or not, there's so much dating happening in our middle school. It's happening in our hallway. You see it all the time and you desire it too, because it's like why not me doing that thing too?
Speaker 1:And I think that's the comparing it to the girls is that at home, what is expected is a lot different than what they see in the hallways and what they see in school. So I thought that was interesting too, that they're both living through it right. They're just reacting to it a little bit differently.
Speaker 3:And I think one of the most interesting part of this whole like guys versus girls conversations not versus, but like two different interviews that we did that I really took away from it is the idea that the girls, the conversations that we were having they were talking about how guys were very sexual. Right, and it might be just because we got lucky and we got the sweetest boys ever, but from the guys experience or the girls assumption of what the guys wanted was very sexual and everything was very about like the sneaky links and stuff. Like the links, sneaky links and stuff, sneaky links and stuff Versus what the guys were prioritizing and the guys wanted was like I don't wanna date for the sake of dating, except for marriage, so I just wanna not date at all, I just wanna hang out with my boys, but I think that's when the communication aspect comes to it too.
Speaker 1:Essentially, they might want that, they might want to date for marriage, but if you are being perceived that all you want is sexual, then there's something wrong with how you're communicating what you want.
Speaker 3:I think it's yes, that's very true. I also think about how we were talking about how when we said guys know what they want. So I think two things in the same context could be true Like guys might not want to take anything seriously and date seriously in the sense, like put their emotions and their hearts on the line, because that's horrible Until they get married or until for someone that they see as marriage material and then play around and be sexual and all that with girls that they don't see themselves with.
Speaker 3:That could be a reality and that could be true, so that the girls' reality might be true. And then also it could be that there are some guys, the bad apples, that are kind of ruining the name for everybody. If that makes sense, that could also be true where these guys can't relate to that story at all. I was just thinking about how, like, at least talking to the guys gave me hope, alhamdulillah, like there's good men there. I never thought there was all treasured thing, but they're good men there. Boys are thinking about marriage, not necessarily in all the context, but that's something that they look forward to. That's part of their success story. That was really interesting to listen to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was surprised that they were able to get that vulnerable.
Speaker 2:Exactly so, which is hopeful, and I don't think they have that introspection of like okay, what do I do about it now? How do I get to what I need to do and do the work that I need to do as far as, like, relationship concern, but I feel like it's kind of good to get that glimpse, and I would say that the two we keep saying high schooler, but they were talking about their high school experience.
Speaker 1:So their first year college students, yeah, okay. And then the other ones are post college College exactly.
Speaker 2:Thank you for clarifying it, cause they're not actually in high school, they're freshmen and college. Yeah, and then they also talked about. What I really appreciate is that the family impact, how family plays a role in that area. What are their family talk to them about? And they have the conversation about marriage and relationship and things like that.
Speaker 1:We kind of already knew that, though I feel like we kind of knew that this conversation is not being had across the board. Guys and girls, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the one thing that I noticed with the guys is that the what do we call them now? Post high school college students.
Speaker 3:Freshman college students that we interviewed. What if they mentioned that his parents emphasized religion and Kabir and like tribe of the girl, and that's like the only thing that they mentioned to them? I was like, oh, she has to be Oromo and maybe like I don't know what he said maybe Arsi and then also, at the same time, muslim, and at least there's that description factor Like this is the pool that you should look into, but there's not more of characteristics and like things to look into. I also noticed that the guys also pay attention to the dynamic between their parents.
Speaker 2:Yes, they do.
Speaker 3:They really look into like. This is what I wish I saw. This is what I didn't see. This is what I saw and that I liked. They are paying attention and they're picking and choosing what to take and what to not take.
Speaker 1:That's kind of hopeful, though, because our image is that like a man is looking for his mother, or like he wants the relationship that he grew up seeing. So it's very nice and refreshing to see that they're saying this is what I want. I wish my parents did this, cause this is what I want to do, you know, when I'm in a marriage.
Speaker 3:Yeah, both genders. That we noticed is that they both wished they saw their parents more affectionate towards each other. That's one thing that was a commonality was they wanted their parents to be more affectionate towards each other. They wanted to see the expression of love in their household, and that's what they didn't have.
Speaker 2:I think what I do I can say about I know we're talking such a nice thing about the boys' conversation because I can say we probably got lucky because, like they were just answering the question the way we hope to be answered to, I guess.
Speaker 2:But another thing that I would kind of say is that they have a lot of curiosity within themselves about who they are and how they show up in the relationship. Well, there is an example of what they've seen or example of what they are interested in. I'm not sure of that aspect of it, but I feel like there's much more curious, like this is what I don't want, this is what I want to have, and it's really different compared to knowing. Like we were saying earlier, when we talk about let's not enable them men specifically, and when it comes to the process of marriage, but this boys that we talk to are much more curious in that sense, like they're already talking about those conversations, not as much as we hope them to among each other, but they're having like selectively small conversation about marriage.
Speaker 3:And I think one thing that I'm not surprised by, but I'm just a little disappointed that that's the reality of the situation is that the boys and the men don't talk about their relationships with themselves. They don't ask for advice with each other. Like girls, they're like hey, this is happening within my life, this is how I move, but that's a thing though.
Speaker 1:That's a thing like growing up. You know how you break that, though it is a thing.
Speaker 2:I know, yeah, I knew this was a thing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is a thing, but I just wished it was it Like I thought it was the things girls thought. We just know it.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's something that will change. I hope so.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's going to change because it's like I think somebody mentioned it, but they're like oh yeah, we don't tell each other who we date.
Speaker 1:Yeah, until the day of the wedding. Yeah, no, because I feel like there's this fear out there in the community, like in society, where, like guys against guys, like I tell you that I'm talking to a girl and then, who knows, you might just hit her up and steal her from me.
Speaker 3:No, I think, I think, I think, I think Most of my friends will hate me for talking about this. They talked with me about all the girls that they dated or they were dating and so on and so forth. They didn't care, because you're in a competition, but maybe that's what it is, I don't know. They're willing to be seen around the girl that they're dating if they're not serious about her. But if they are serious about her, then you don't know. They know each other. You don't know that they know each other Until the wedding day.
Speaker 3:Until the wedding day, they pretend they don't know each other. They're very hush-hush about it, but if they are not that serious about her, they will show her around.
Speaker 1:I think it's like protective jealousy I don't care about her.
Speaker 2:So it doesn't matter if you guys know her, but I care about this one.
Speaker 1:So nobody knows her, nobody's gonna know her.
Speaker 2:That's really interesting.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile, on the other end, we're saying Okay, if I matter to you, show me off, Show me off yeah.
Speaker 2:If that girl that he's showing off thinks she must matter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's insane, wow, that's insane.
Speaker 3:It's crazy too, because there's a lot of fights that happen because of that. Some guys might feel differently. Right, that's not like over-generalization, but the people that have been around the girls would be like, oh, he's not showing me off. And the girl girls would be like, yeah, he's not showing you off, he must be cheating. He must be cheating, he must have another person. And then she gets forced, she forces herself out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because of misunderstanding over friends yeah. Wow, I don't know, girls, if you are listening to this conversation.
Speaker 3:So it might be that he's cheating, but it might just not be sometimes I would just be trying to ask questions.
Speaker 2:Ask questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because if that's the case, that's kind of scary, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because we think opposite yeah, but if you love me, you can fight me, that's what we think yeah.
Speaker 1:The world needs to know that. I will say that personally. When my husband and I were talking and courting, not a soul knew.
Speaker 3:My husband and I either. Nobody knew, yeah, not a soul knew. Why is that?
Speaker 2:So why is that? That's what the other guys were saying too, but the older guys? They're saying there's a lot of secrecy and privacy around you. Don't mention them to get married. And it sounds like you guys are saying you do the same thing as well.
Speaker 3:Which I do. The reason why girls are private is different than why guys are private.
Speaker 1:Me personally. I've always been a very private person, so yeah, I didn't want myself out there period.
Speaker 3:And I'm not the only person. It's weird. It's not the same way with the guy. The guy can go through 10 girls and then he would be called a player Increases, increases his clout. It increases his clout and also sometimes At least attraction to the community, yeah, the fact that, yeah, which is a bad double standard.
Speaker 2:That is horrible, and I think that's the same conversation with what I'm noticing from the boys too. When they're talking about marriages specifically, they're like we're not going to bring it up until the day off.
Speaker 3:I think here's what it is If we want our children, if we want our youth to be able to have a successful marriage, we have to be able to have space for them to talk about these things, and to not even just talk about these things, but to explore these things the halal way, like with whatever, whatever With a chaparral, with a chaparral, without tattooing that person's name on them. Oh, she was talking to someone, so what? Yeah exactly.
Speaker 3:How do you expect her to get married? You know, or he was talking to someone and he knows my friend. He talked to my friend like the last two years. Okay, that didn't work out. You know what I mean. But our community has this thing of shaming guys and girls, but girls mostly, but I think I think it's the whole connotation right, like dating.
Speaker 1:What do you think of when you say, like I've talked to somebody or I've dated that person, it's a whole. You already have all of these things that you're thinking about.
Speaker 2:That means that it's more their problem. They're the one who's projecting Like they're always negative experience, but your intention is not to do that.
Speaker 1:No, I agree with you, but I'm saying we need to make it, so we need to show people how to do it the right way. Yeah, right.
Speaker 3:I think it's not even just the fact that they're doing it the wrong way. It's about that lack of conversation creates this. How in our community you don't see guys and girls. For example, in Osfana you see a guy and a girl walking automatically. Oh, they're dating. That friendship, that platonic friendship, that Rahmet part, right Like when you see a guy and a girl. They might be related, they might be just friends, they just might have met and gotten to know each other. Asalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa rahmatullahi, wa rahmatullahi.
Speaker 1:I will say that. I will say, though if you're talking to somebody, you probably shouldn't bring them to Osfana.
Speaker 3:No, yeah, I'm showing off Period.
Speaker 1:No, no, I think If you'll save yourself a lot of that's true, but the problem is the people at Osfana is what we're talking about.
Speaker 3:I feel like we're so judgmental. Think about Osfana is the perfect opportunity to meet someone from your own community.
Speaker 3:Oh, no, because wait, wait no no, not the way it is now. You used to be the way it is In theory, not the way it is now, but in theory it is the perfect opportunity to meet an automobile person, because you have automobile people from Australia, from different cities, that are all descending into one space. They're all descending into one space and if you are someone that's seeking an automobile person, that's the perfect space to find someone.
Speaker 2:You know what I agree with you on the fact that we're very much judgmental.
Speaker 1:We're very judgmental.
Speaker 2:We need to give this youth who are trying to figure it out themselves Secondly, trying to figure out this dating or marriage process space for them to make a mistake, as long as they're not doing to harm one another.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:But I do also agree with you, abshiro, about having proper way of doing this to go about it where it's not going to be harmful and it comes from a very intentional space?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I feel like Osfana you only see the soccer game and whatnot, but what happens at night is far worse.
Speaker 3:See, that's also the problem. I feel like I mean, I have so many issues with Osfana, so many issues with Osfana. Why'd you whisper it like that, Like literally? I have to calm down because I have lists that should be a different kind of space. Like so many automobile, people come into one space with the intention of automobile. Now we offer them is music and soccer. And I'm like it's okay, because not every automobile person is Muslim and that's okay.
Speaker 3:But, what we could have charitable opportunities. We could have, halal dating opportunities, networking opportunities, nothing, nothing of substance except for leisure, and the leisure is even haram for Muslim people. That's true.
Speaker 2:Except for the soccer part, wasteful leisure is haram for them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean that's my biggest issue with Osfana is like when we come together and you're having 10,000 plus people or more people in one space.
Speaker 1:I think maybe they feel like, if it's not the music and the haram stuff, nobody will come. But you haven't even offered it.
Speaker 3:You haven't offered it. Yeah, in addition, not just you haven't offered it, but how many people come from out of state and they're there literally eight hours today watching soccer. That's true, literally they go to party. Did they have people?
Speaker 2:I have so many ideas. They should have a tourist group to take people out to cities and show them around. Anyway, that's not today's. Comes in a little sun.
Speaker 1:Okay, we digress, we digress.
Speaker 2:Come on, it's more to understand our young guys as a community.
Speaker 3:I feel like we should be less judgmental as a Muslim or a community. We should create spaces and even sometimes set our eyes, you know, like when we see a guy and a girl they're walking, we should give them the benefit of the doubt, move our eyes the other way, because you don't know. You wish them the best, like, whatever their situation is, you wish them the best Instead of assuming what's happening.
Speaker 1:We do judge by what we see too. We can't really.
Speaker 3:What does that mean? Explain that a little bit.
Speaker 1:For example, say they come in holding hands or whatever. They should be husband and wife. That's why my brain is good. But if I know that person, Don't put yourself in that kind of situation. I.
Speaker 3:Guess, in a way, we're talking about two different things what the couple should do versus what the community should do. I think we're talking about the community, how the community should be more willing to encourage Healthy I understand the relationships yeah, unless it's mental. But the couple also should know that. You know, rome wasn't built in a day and there's not gonna be change made in overnight. So you're gonna be judged. So if you don't want to be judged, keep it halal. It's different. Don't be under the religious.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I'm gonna start using instead of Rome, it's built in a day. I'm just gonna say Islamic Empire was not built in a day. Yeah, but I think we have touched on, for the most part, a lot of good points and let's not be judgmental, and being able to be curious and good to know your own Youth, and let's try to figure out safe space that people can meet and get to know one another, and I think that's what we were trying to get.
Speaker 1:I think that's what we're going towards. Yeah, all of our conversations how to meet people right and organically and not Stricting not very like cuz we talked about the whole social media thing. It's a fast-paced lifestyle. You barely have any room to even meet people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:One thing when you said social media that kind of triggered a thought in my brain was that even the use of social media and how each of the genders interpret that Things that we post right. So the girls were like, oh, you know, I get dressed the way I want, I put on the clothes and the makeup that I want and I post the way I want, not to attract a guy or Portray anything about myself, but that's how I was feeling or, you know, that's my style or whatever the case is. And then the guys are like that portrayal whatever that portrayal is I'm not being descriptive at all they read into that picture a lot more than what the girl is many meaning to send because they're physical very visual, very visual appearance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what one said. I wrote it down. He said appearance matter and that's what we first noticed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's why I'm glad that you brought that up, because that's yeah the message that girls are trying to send and the message guys receive are completely two different messages Got. A girl might feel like, oh, I have, and I'm not saying this is wrong, I'm just saying I'm just using a hyperbolic example. But a girl might go to Mac and get her makeup done to the best of her ability and posted this picture that she thinks she looks really fly in. And then the guy might look at that picture and he might interpret it as Is it thirst trap? Yes, versus, she's just feeling cute, right. Or a girl might post a picture with no makeup on and she's just like walking around, and someone might have taken a picture and she just posts it because she feels good, and the guy might look at that picture oh, she's so much a lot, she's so all natural, you know, and she might not be the so much a little girl.
Speaker 1:You know I love.
Speaker 3:You know, you don't know the hearts of people, but there's interpretations. Or she might look cute and she just posted that picture and then he might think, oh, she just looks really beautiful with her makeup, with her clothes, she cares about herself, she cares about her appearance.
Speaker 1:That's a really plus for I doubt that guys will be like oh, she put makeup on, she cares about herself.
Speaker 3:I'm just saying like you, don't like they might be guys that look at a girl with makeup on that tried and be like, okay, this girl cares about her appearance and how people view her, and that's a plus for me, because I care about my appearance and how people view me. You know what I mean. So the messaging Could be different. So I think the biggest takeaway for me is the assumption.
Speaker 1:Assumptions make an ass out of all of us and always have a good assumption about the opposite gender.
Speaker 2:Yeah just and.
Speaker 1:I'm not somebody else. Prove you preview otherwise and even if somebody proves you otherwise, don't brush, stroke it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I'm not saying you should generalize it.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying and that person until that person you have an evidence of Right. But I wanted to kind of highlight that gap that's happening to expectation and understanding and comprehension for the men, mm-hmm for the girls, the reason behind why she pulls certain things and the way he Understand why she pulls it, and even that gap itself is also the challenging of even relationship with. Something that we talked about earlier in the previous discussion Is that there is an expectation the girl have for the relationship and the understanding that he has.
Speaker 2:And so even with the social media example that you just gave, it sounds like even though that's very small, it has an effect on actual relationship, the way that's looked at it, the way that scene that's understood, instead of Clarifying and having understanding of what from a different perspective or getting why does she do that in asking a girl like, oh, did you do this for it? You know, and maybe the girl's gonna be offended and not able to give them the right answers Like why is your business kind of thing Right? Or, if they are curious, could ask other girls like this she post that for a thirst drop or is it just because she felt like she's feeling herself?
Speaker 1:No, I, yeah. I think it's probably like a 2.5 second Opinion that he'll have or she'll have, and then it's scrolling again.
Speaker 3:It's super superficial, super superficial that's true when you said those things impact relationships to it. That is so true if these miscommunications are happening with the posts that each other have, and maybe for the guy's version it might be like, oh, he might just go past every picture that he sees and he might just double tap everything that he sees and he doesn't think twice. And then she might be like, oh, he just liked my friend's picture and you know, and he was like I didn't even know who was on my screen, I just, you know, double tapped and I knew her. So I just wanted to show support. I'm just being super naive. That might be his intention, but she might interpret that into something else. These miscommunications keep going. They get into a relationship and she's posting these pictures that she's like oh, I look cute, I look good, and then he still perceives it as star straps, why are you posting these kind of pictures? And then, instead of communicating what he's understanding and what she's sending out, she will take his dislike or dismay as controlling Does that make sense.
Speaker 3:Instead of being like. What is your issue with this picture? Why are you uncomfortable with it?
Speaker 2:I have a very vivid example about that in real life. That happened A girl deleting her social media because of that.
Speaker 3:Why?
Speaker 2:Because yeah, she was in relationship and her partner did not want her to post pictures and talk to negative because she's so big on social media and she was doing that. And I'm understanding now from what you're saying. One of the reasons that I think that he did not want her to have the social media itself is because he's understanding that she's doing it for the other guys, not the fact that she's having fun on social media just by doing makeups and clothes and things like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think fundamentally, it comes down to communication. Almost the vast majority of problems and issues is communication, and I don't think unless they're willing to sit at the table together and say, okay, this is what I'm thinking, this is what you're thinking, and talk about it. It's a cycle.
Speaker 3:It's a cycle, yeah, so any last thoughts about the yeah, I mean, I think there's a big need for an open dialogue between the genders, specifically in our community. And also there is a toxic and I say toxic with a capital T a toxic advice system. Men get from their mothers or their aunts or their whatever women figures in their lives that, oh, because if they're from a different generation, they have a different perspective and opinion about how a woman is supposed to operate and what that operation means, and there's a different connotation to oh, she's like this, so she must be like this. Oh, she's acting like this, and they advise their boys with good intention, with very toxic material, but they could be killing their relationship. But they could be killing their relationship and their potential or marriage yes, that's also introspection.
Speaker 3:Introspection and like also putting out, just because the person that you love gave you advice, it doesn't mean it's the right advice, it doesn't mean it's tried and true, Test it, question it, investigate it, have a conversation. And also I say this it could be distant for those of you that are uncomfortable, but make sure, I mean, if you're married then never mind, but I don't know how to explain it, Like I don't know how to get guys and girls in the same room in a platonic way with strapperos, just to have conversations. You know what I mean. So they get just so they can see the other person as human. That person is not filled with ego just because he looks good. I'm going to have an anecdote with this. I had a friend I'm not going to say names one of the most miskeying, miskeying, miskeying people I know to this day.
Speaker 3:So sweet, a little bit of a flake, so sweet, just kind, doesn't know how to say no, but very attractive, very, very attractive, and people used to think that he was an asshole just because they just that's assumption, Like, oh, you know because he's a pretty boy because he's a pretty boy, oh, he must be an F boy and, like he used to, and he's so miskeying too, because he's one of those people that falls hard fast and he would be like in a relationship and he would be like in love with this girl. He'd tell me about it and the girl is soaked in insecurity because her friends are telling her oh, he didn't call you, he didn't text you, he's in soccer for six hours and you know like he's like, oh, he must be with another girl, and then she will be filled in security and then they break up and he's like devastated, he's like.
Speaker 3:I didn't do anything. He used to be a college soccer player, so, like his scholarship depended on his soccer. It's not like he's playing for a leisure. He had to go to practice and all of that stuff, so it was hard. Man. I was just like, yeah, like, and he's like I don't know why people think like I'm f-boy. Like every relationship that I've been in it's been very Monogamous. You know, like I've never cheated out anybody.
Speaker 2:But I think that is a societal top Social media toxic bad people, cuz it's they.
Speaker 1:They say that anytime somebody's pretty, they have a lot of people and I think that's a big thing, though, like the whole toxic family members, because Even if you have brothers or whatever in your life and if they're really sweet, I don't know you're just like, oh my god, I hope you don't get a terrible woman that controls you and do this and this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we forget that our boys, the boys that we grew up with, that we are part of our family, have a brain of their own once we love them. I'm like oh, this person you know they learn the same lessons you learned. They had the same parents you had. I think it's a perfect thing.
Speaker 1:I think it's a very protective thing. Yeah, I will say that we do have the power to manipulate who does as a woman. Yeah, don't you guys think so? I'll say we don't you guys think so? Some women, come on now, you guys, some of everything.
Speaker 3:Some men have the power to manipulate. Some women have the.
Speaker 1:Psychology or defense you are such a therapist.
Speaker 3:I think there's an overblown assumption that women manipulate women.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, let me qualify it. Men can manipulate. Women can manipulate to. Yes, I got the possibility of women manipulating to. I feel like that sometimes we're just like no.
Speaker 3:No, no, definitely there's some manipulative women out there.
Speaker 2:I do want to say that my takeaway of today's conversation and the past recording conversation that I wanted to say that thinking black and white, specifically about either gender, it's not gonna help us serve the purpose that we're supposed to here to do. I think it's like Bonnie constantly says half mercy to one another.
Speaker 1:That's her favorite word.
Speaker 2:And so because I think for me is that I grow up thinking black and white about men and women, and I think, as a Young adult and being in this stage of my life, I do think of it from a gray areas and everybody comes from a different baggage, different trials and different trauma, different situations, and so it's hard for me to just kind of stroke the brush it from one way.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean I have to give everybody an Individual, meet them where they are this is what you were saying therapy meet individuals where they are. So you meet them from that and then take it from that face value, not to add coming to your own baggage and kind of project it in there and make them to be a certain way, if that makes sense. So that's my biggest takeaway about today's conversation and then also is bring me a little bit of hope, because a lot of young Oromal boys are men too, are talking about things that are important to us, that we all are afraid to touch base on, and so that makes me think, like you know what, I'm proud of them for coming out and talk about things that we think is important to the conversation and at least we might not making a Big impact, but there's an impact that's happening, and I think that's what I want to hold space for right now.
Speaker 1:Okay, I would say that a big takeaway for me are two things. One is that we keep coming to this idea of holding space for our Young people, you know, to talk about these issues, to explore these issues and kind of get everybody to the table to talk about these Issues. And then having spaces where people can meet and actually have these dialogue is the other biggest thing because, respectively, the guys and the girls, they're talking about these things.
Speaker 1:Yes they're not coming together. Yeah, I'm talking to each other. Talking to each other, yes, and so they both are in their feelings and creating this whole world. Yes, about the other gender, that some of it is not true and some of them could be revised so.
Speaker 3:Absolutely Okay, bonnie. One thing I wanted to put out there until the universe, when it comes to understanding each other, is Understanding that we all have to navigate our world and then also step outside of our world and our own Experience to meet people, like the hubby said, where they are, and also not using the lenses of our own personal experience All the time, because that might not be real for the other person. For example, facial expressions you know, for some people the smiling is like a sign of Kindness and a sign of happiness. And for some people smile and they're the most depressed people in the planet. You know, for some people they're very quiet but they're one of the most interesting human beings on the face of the earth. And then for some people they're very loud but there's no substance whatsoever. And just because we have this association, meaning like quiet is boring. It doesn't mean so. Happy means smiling. It doesn't mean so. Pretty boy means fuck boy. It doesn't mean so. Just that idea like stepping away.
Speaker 3:Yes, go beyond your own experience, go beyond your own knowledge or prior knowledge, go beyond the superficial and have rahmet and mercy towards one another, y'all.
Speaker 2:I really like that and I wanted us to end on that notes, and it's been a very productive conversation today around Be open-minded to one another and have grace and compassion. As far as you're getting to know and I think Bonnie has said it well and I don't think there's anything else I can add to it besides I hope you enjoy this conversation.
Speaker 1:This has been difficult conversation.
Speaker 3:Salamu alaykum.
Speaker 1:Join the conversation in the comment section or on our Instagram page to share with us what you think. We do not have all the answers and our biggest goal is to kick off and get the conversation going. May Allah's upon with Zaynah accept our efforts and use us as catalysts for change.