Difficult Conversations
Difficult Conversations
Love and Culture
How do we navigate the complexities of culture, relationships, and personal growth in the Oromo diaspora? Join us as we tackle the often unspoken topic of courting, discussing the lack of conversation around relationships in families and how parents often turn a blind eye to the realities of hormones and peer pressure affecting their children.
We also explore the power of group dynamics among youth, and the potential benefits of learning and growing together in a supportive environment. Listen in to discover the importance of providing a secure space for young people to share and learn, and how this can help them navigate the challenges of growing up in a culturally diverse setting.
Don't miss this insightful conversation about the complexities of culture, relationships, and personal growth.
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أسلام عليكم. Welcome to Difficult Conversations where we tackle table topics in a safe space through empowerment and education.
Speaker 2:In our earlier episode we talked about how family affects relationships and the courtship process. This episode we want to talk about how culture affects the courting process and relationships in general. I think, specifically in the Oremo diaspora culture in Minnesota specifically, I don't think I've ever experienced a family that had sat down with their kids when I was a young To talk to them about, hey, kid, girl A and boy B relationship is very important and who you spent the rest of your life with is also very important. That's one of the most important decisions you'll ever make. So you should look out for these red flags. You should look out for these green flags. You should prioritize this. You should walk away when this hits the fan When you see this.
Speaker 2:I don't think I've ever had anyone sit down with their kid or I've ever heard personally of anyone sitting down with their kid and having that conversation. When I was in high school and when I was in middle school and I was in college, I don't think I've ever had any Oremo friends that ever felt comfortable to talk to their parents about who they were interested in, who they wanted to talk to, and so on and so forth. Have you guys ever experienced that? What is your perspective on that?
Speaker 1:I think for me it was almost a non-spoken rule that you handled your relationships outside the family And then, when you got to that point of okay, now we're ready for marriage, أيا أن تقوم الى تجتب عن المنافسة, إذن الذهاب تنسلativeحال وPerfect واتباه دائما وتقنظوا عن العالم.
Speaker 3:ثم علاوة Orientation ج replaced محاولة أبắn وأليس ماه first ماه ماه, ماه ماه منقل سكر محار behind اعطاء, ولكن م tyres ي來說 أن體لي على م الشي ون ن Espaشون اليijah و공 açık價情 في هيها أو انك لست يستطيع السحر لupbeat at Home مع وقت أنت ما تقصص carb أو أحب أني أتحمل, أحمد, لا أريد أن أتحمل أ oblation هوهي حيث أنتان's وكذلك حتى الآن, نحن جمFFFF إنه مريخ.
Speaker 1:ما تفعلتك؟, مثل أحمد, when you're supposed to be focusing on your studies?
Speaker 2:نعم, أعتقد أنه هناك هذه أكبر تقريب في الأمر, where parents pretend that there's no such thing as hormones with their teenage kids and their teenage kids don't have eyes or peers, or the American culture doesn't influence them in any way. هناك هذه أكبر تقريب, like they close their eyes, plug their ears and pretend that that's not happening. والصحة هي أن حياتهم يحصلون على حياتهم عندما كانوا في المدينة, المدينة, المدينة, المدينة. يفنحون أحدهم في بعض الأمر.
Speaker 1:نعم, لكنهم ينسون هذا وينسون أيضا, أن حياتهم كانوا في حالة المدينة المدينة, ويبقوا في المدينة المدينة, ويجبوا على المدينة المدينة. ويأتيون أحيانهم, لم تقلقوا, لأنهم قد تقريبا أو تقريبا فالأمر يوجد مجدداً لتذهب عنه. ويجب أن تذهب عنه, لكن هناك لا نعرف ما هذا الطريق هو.
Speaker 2:حسناً ويأتيون إلى ترغب أسرعاً على هذا في المدينة المدينة لا تعرف ما تعرف, لأنه في حالةهم هناك أحد يعتمدون البيلغة. حتى في ذلك الوقت هناك أحد يحصلون على البيلغة لأنهم رأيون هذه المدينة المدينة. ويأتيون هذه المدينة المدينة, ويأتيون إلى هذا البيلغة. وعندما تضع هذا البيلغة على أحد, فهي يجب أن يكون قد يتعب with هذا البيلغة. لذا يذهبون في ترغب المدينة. أنهم لم يكنوا يذهبون, ونحن لم يكنوا يذهبون إذا كانت أفضل. التعليق ليس كذلك أنه لم يكنوا يحدثون إذا كانت هناك. فهذا فقط يحدث. يأتي من المدينة ويأتيون إلى المدينة, المدينة, المدينة, المدينة, المدينة.
Speaker 1:ويأتيون إلى هذا البيلغة 圈ق لم أفق합니다. لا ح peaceful bothering بس ياريحان فزهائة.
Speaker 3:إنها الأعصاب 기راء، والديناabe وiqué applauding leader and beast=" أهشخت الأبال ب matter التخزين على نقدف البال. No-transcript. فيد này الصردة هناك سطر weights فاية phenomenal دي pm.
Speaker 3:اي部分 expectations الي اي Gravity هل مج mammal الفوس Coming لأنه ما تفعله في الامر, لأنه يجب أن يكون مجموعة, لأنه يجب أن يخبرك. ولكن ما يحدث هو أن في أخرين المدينة هناك أطبخ وطبخ الأسفل الذين يتعلمون بشكل جيد. هناك أطبخ وطبخ الأسفل الذين يتعلمون بشكل جيد. وإنهاية الأمر, يتعلمون بشكل جيد. ما يحدث بشكل جيد هو أن أتعلم هذه المتحدة التي سأتعلمها, هو أن هناك أطبخ الأسفل الذين يتعلمون بشكل جيد, لأنك ستكون ستعرف أسفل المنطقة. لذا أجد أن تتعرف أسفل المنطقة. لا تتحدث عن الأسفل الذين يتعلمون بشكل جيد. وإذا هو, كيف يجب أن تعمل في الأسفل المنطقة. هذا يمكن أن يكون بشكل رلوجيا, وقلترية. يمكن أن يكون مجموعة, لذلك ويصبح مجموعة في هذا المكان, ثم يتعلمون بشكل جيد. هناك أسفل المنطقة. ويجب أن يكون في الأمريكا, ويوم في الأمريكا, كما يوجد أسفل المنطقة, أنه يوجد أسفل المنطقة. يوجد أسفل المنطقة. ويوجد هذا, ويوجد هذه الأسفل المنطقة, ويوجد أسفل المنطقة في الأمريكا. ويوم في الأمريكا.
Speaker 3:أريد أن أعلم أن هذا هو أسفل المنطقة. أنت تخلق هذه الأسفل المنطقة مع أسفلك لأنها لا يمكن أن تأتي أمي وده, هذا هو ما يحدث في الأسفل. لا أعلم ما يفعله لك أيضا, كما أنت, as a parent, أمي أو أصدقائك ستأتي إلى أنك تقول أني أسفل المنطقة, وأن أسفل المنطقة, إذا كانت تحدث في الأسفل أسفل المنطقة, وأن هذا ما نفعله, وأن هذه المنطقة, فهذا هو المنطقة, وأنها تبدأ تحدث. ولكن إذا كنت تقول لا أعلم, أن أعلم, أن أسفل المنطقة وأن أسفل المنطقة, فالذي يحدث هو أن أسفل المنطقة أو في أسفل المنطقة.
Speaker 1:سأستخدم الأمر كأن أسفل المنطقة وأن أسفل المنطقة لكن أشعر أن كأباك أنت تجدت تصدقائك من المنطقة قبل أن تأتي أو قبل, أو النساء أو المنطقة, أو كذلك. لأن عندما تحاول أن تتحدث, هذا التتكلم أسفل المنطقة. لأن, كأباك أصبحت أذك, أتذكر أبداً ألا أتحدث, أبداً ألا أخبرت. أصبحت أحد أخبرت. أخبرت لأن هناك سنطفال وكن أخبرت. لم أكن لدي لانجوج لإخبرتهم. أخبرتهم أنت تدريب, أنت تفعل عن how أن تحصل على أن تصل إلى ذلك قبل أن تصل إلى أنت, فالاكتر أن أنت.
Speaker 2:أنت تجد, أن تجد هذا الأرد من المتعجل, وأن تجد هذا المنطقة قبل أن تفعل. كيف تشعر? وأن والأمر, عندما تتحدث عنه, عندما تتحدث عن المنطقة ومن المتحدة, أنت تتحدث سببا ومن المنطقة ومن المنطقة. لم يحدث, لا أحدث, لا أحدث كانت بما يحدث عن المنطقة ومن المنطقة, ومن المنطقة, ومن المنطقة ومن المنطقة. لا أريد أن أكون أحدهم المتحدة. أنت تحصل على, لا تحصل على المنطقة ومن المنطقة, أو أيضا مدينة. أنت تخبر ما يقل في هذا المنطقة, ما يقل في هذا المنطقة. إذا أنت تحصل على المنطقة ومن المنطقة, أنت تحصل على, أنت, أنت, لأنك تحصل على المنطقة. لذا أعتقد أني It's very sad to think about kids and I think it goes back to that tabooing factor For me and my family.
Speaker 2:Like I said, we grew up in Adiz, so my aunts had friends that plutonic guy friends. My uncles had plutonic girl friends, girls that happened to be friends with them. So it was very normal to have relationships with the other gender and have conversations with them in that romantic and non-romantic setting. So in my family it wasn't taboo to have conversations with dudes, but it was like taboo to have feelings for dudes.
Speaker 1:How can you have conversations?
Speaker 2:without it. I'm going to tell you a story and I'm fine telling the story. There was this Tazia in our house for a family that was far removed from us, and they put all the children in one room and they told us to play in there. Then, by the time it was over, my aunt was like oh, they're the same age, you guys should exchange phone numbers so that it was like me, another girl, another guy, another girl. You guys should exchange phone numbers so that you guys could stay friends and stay in communication. Then I was like cool, so we exchanged phone numbers. I wrote in my diary which I thought was private at the time, but I wrote in my diary that one of the dudes in that room was cute. I loved something. Not loved so-and-so, but I loved their hair or something. Oh, that's so cute hair, they're so cute and attractive, or whatever. It was very naive, a very middle school crush. Maybe She read that part and she lost her shit. The same person that was like you guys could be friends.
Speaker 2:You guys are all good girls, guys, everybody could be friends. The minute feelings were involved, it was shut down. I was like how could you? That's not what I meant. Yeah, they're supposed to be just friends, you're not supposed to think they're cute. If that conversation just went a little bit different, i was like, okay, i understand you think that person is cute, but instead of that, i want you to know that A this is not the time. B our religion says that the only person you should be in a relationship with is a person that you're married to. This is how you find out that. This is how you court or get into that space. This is what to look for in a middle school language. If that was what was communicated instead of And I think I feel like it would have created a more open relationship versus a lot of Tom and Jerry.
Speaker 3:It's also the fact is that I always say be curious. When we come to your kids. It's your reaction to that incident that was going to be mattering. How you reacted for you, that sets a standard. Now, I always thought I was going to get some bad taffy.
Speaker 2:I just remember that.
Speaker 3:See, that sets a standard. So maybe the idea of you can have crushes on boys and boys can have crushes on girls and that's okay, but Islamically we're not supposed to act on those feelings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if you're not Muslims culturally, this is what we do differently.
Speaker 3:Just explaining that, just not making him feel like what you were doing was wrong, making even that that's not even what Allah says. You know what I mean. So clarifying those type of conversation. If it comes up that you saw that, i would say, hey, just tell me, who do you like Kind of things, making sure, and then they'll give you a window to have a conversation And that conversation will lead to maybe trying to get the perspective where your child's in that state of mind is, because maybe they're not even where you are. But if you shut it down from the beginning and you push shame around it, then you're shutting the future. Like what if something happened?
Speaker 1:And I feel like for parents, especially our parents, they didn't know either how to have those conversations and it was uncharted territory that they're getting into as well. And they're probably in this survival mode where they're not going to sit down and be like oh, let me check in on my child's emotional well-being. It's just not a thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's why it's our responsibility in this generation, for our listeners that are our age or younger, to be conscious of that. Okay, your parents didn't. They were in survival mode. They were too busy trying to feed your ass and trying to, like, put whatever it was over your head to pay attention to your emotional needs. But now, inshaallah, alhamdulillah, like, maybe you're in a better space than they are right, maybe you are not such fighting survival all the time or you're trying to thrive. So now that you're trying to thrive, create a space where your child gets to thrive more than you and give them the things that you're lacking in the emotional space.
Speaker 1:And the other thing is, i feel like, for our generation, we probably have siblings that are younger than us, and because we know these things now and we've done some of the mental work, it's kind of our responsibility too to like check in our younger siblings and be like okay, i know, this is how I grew up, i don't want you to go through similar experiences as well. And opening that door and opening that channel of communication so that they can confide in you And I feel like that needs to be a thing- One thing parents should realize is this you talk about it, you don't talk about it.
Speaker 2:It's happening, it's happening, it's happening. And then if you don't make yourself someone that's available for them to talk to, they're going to find someone else to talk with to have a conversation with, and that person may not be a positive person.
Speaker 2:That person might drive them away from the religion. They might drive them away from the culture and make them involved in things that they were not. How many automobile girls have you guys heard of that they ran away with a boy. Too many to count? Too many to count. It's funny, too, the way I even framed that question. The girls ran away with the guys versus they ran away together.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying Blame is over. It's already laced it so much one-sided It's so one-sided.
Speaker 2:But if those people that ran away and the funny part of that conversation, i'm sorry, i'm just so heated because I just heard a story about that they ran away, the children or the individuals they run away. And then the parents then decide, because of shit they're ashamed, because they don't want to be shamed by the community, to put a nicha for them. I want us to talk about that Now. Nicha is a solution. It's a band-aid.
Speaker 1:But then they were ready to have that conversation and when she brought him home they said absolutely not over our dead body. And now she's probably pregnant.
Speaker 2:And now that nicha That's what I'm saying. And now that guy probably is not even worse or tight. You know what I'm saying, or she's not even worse, his time. But now that they don't have a solution, it's damage control.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now it's just Damage control.
Speaker 3:No, i wanted to talk about that a little bit because when I brought up the idea of shame earlier is because of that. The shame is coming from a fear and embarrassment. When something like that happened, they put the responsibility on the girl, saying the girl carries the family name. Why is the girl? Because if the girl get pregnant then that's the evidence of she's done something wrong. Right, instead of saying, listen, if you like somebody, let's figure it out, let's make this happen and let's at least do engagement for you guys and then kind of like open that you know what I mean And have those conversation.
Speaker 3:But there is a huge aspect of in our community for where it come to a lot of things about how can we impress our friends, our cousins, our neighbors when it come to our children, but we're willing to overly compromise the harm that we're doing to them in the long term. I know you care so much about your friends and your cousins and your friends and all the neighbors, your image of how you look in front of other people, but guess what, when they are adult they're going to pile up all this resentment like they're going to bring towards you. It's like I know you said this earlier where he's like, but they didn't know any better. But the one thing you do know better is the fact is that why are you pleasing other people?
Speaker 1:that the detriment of your kids.
Speaker 3:That's the point we wanted to get on in this platform is to make sure that those kids they didn't know any better either. You know what I mean. If they had the right support system, the right information, the right resources, they're not going to do the things that they've been hidden to them. So what we're trying to bridge that, like the parents they don't know any better and the kids they don't know any better. But what can we do differently based on the experiences that we heard about our own experiences, my own personal experiences that I remember.
Speaker 3:So somebody proposed to me while I was in college I wasn't even talk to boys until I was college, that's the thing. Okay, they would tell me not to look at boys. And so then, when they did propose to me and they didn't react very well to that proposal, who your family, my family, my sister's like really on my side, no problem, right, but the men, they don't understand the assignment because their love and protection of you it turns into like anxiety to them. Yeah, to them I feel like they were protecting me from this proposal. But then it came out as an anxiety reaction And I understand that now, but at that point I was like, oh my God, my families are mad at me. I don't want anything to do with you. And I told the person don't you dare ever call me, call me. And then that's it. And that person like obliged, they did that exactly Okay.
Speaker 1:so I have a question then for you. So when the person proposed to you, did you guys talk before the proposal? or he just saw you, met you and be like, oh my gosh, tahabe, i'm gonna go talk to your parents. How did that work?
Speaker 3:I didn't know he liked me, but he proposed to my sister Oh, without telling you, I knew he liked me, but obviously you can hint that out when somebody likes you. And yeah, he told me that he liked me and he wanted to ask for my hand. And then I said I want you to speak to my sister first.
Speaker 1:Oh, he did it right. Yeah, see, the only reason why I asked because not a lot of people do it like that. No, Like very few people and some of the sisters that I have spoken to about how would they would prefer and stuff like that. that's too forward for a lot of people.
Speaker 3:But for the girls.
Speaker 2:For the girls.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i think he heard good things about me. His friends would tell him, like his cousin would tell that that girl's Hajiah. You know what that means? Yeah, so they call me Hajiah. What's Hajiah? Somebody who Like a good person? Yeah, somebody who did politics Righteous. So because he came with that expectation of who I am, he wanted to go about the right way. Oh, i shall not.
Speaker 3:So the man who wants to protect me from this naiviveness? I was 18, they were like, no, no, you went to school to talk to boys, you're not there to study. And then the same people would tell you when you graduate So when are you getting married? Yeah, so they just kind of cut short the stories. The specific example that I'm giving is that there are girls who are doing those, obliging the rules and following all that kind of stuff to avoid the shame that the family did not want to happen. But they're going to be a stage when they ready to get married. all that option might not be there as much as it used to be when they were not even looking. And so have those conversations making sure that you know what. It's okay if you're like someone, but let us know who it is.
Speaker 1:It's normal, yeah.
Speaker 3:Let us know who it is, so we can go talk to him or her, or do a background checker.
Speaker 3:Exactly Like hey, maybe you can filter out right, instead of like if they come to you directly to. That's another thing, because in our culture I'm now I'm getting to the point is that in our culture there's no proper proposal thing that happens the way my example was, it's like there's no direct proposal, it's more like the girl You go to the family, yep, it's like it's more like the girl would tell her sister or her mom and then get that comfort And then they tell she tell her boyfriend And then hey, hey, now my mom is good, so yeah, She's worked on her for like six months.
Speaker 3:Yes, Yes, that's what it is, instead of like there's a proposal coming, it might be a surprise. Yeah, it's somebody that you've never heard of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, And I feel like, from the family standpoint, i don't think they want multiple proposals, like multiple times, because then they're like, okay, i feel like they already have filled in the whole story of the proposal. You know what I mean. Like, okay, this guy's coming And they're already thinking he didn't come to me directly. You guys have been talking, you guys have. You know, who knows what you guys have done? Their mind automatically goes there In a bad misconception place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't you guys think that is because of the lack of communication? Yes, Like it's kind of like I catch 22. I want to go back a little bit for back to the conversation that I was a few points that I was making Earlier when you guys were talking about like back home and the bad day I like the guy, like if the two people like each other, then they go to for my child, for your child, kind of thing. Typical arranged marriage.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But think about Honestly, even the conversation is lax with guys. A guy can go to his parents and be like, hey, I like so-and-so back home, where they're not even you know, like maybe he sees her and fetching water and he's like I like this girl, I'm being so like straight.
Speaker 1:But it is that You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:And then he sees her and he's like oh, I like this girl, She's pretty, I want to make her my wife. That conversation to his parents is so much easier than a girl seeing him. Oh, I want to. Oh, I wish I could marry that guy. That's different.
Speaker 3:You know what I?
Speaker 2:mean There's two different connotations. Oh, if she has that thought, if she verbalizes that thought, she's promiscuous versus a guy And she's saying I wish I could marry that guy, She's not saying I wish I could do something. You know, even that thought is promiscuous. Even that thought is forward.
Speaker 3:You're not supposed to even say I wanted to get married, mom You know, can you imagine?
Speaker 2:You're just expected to want to get married sometime to this person that's going to drop to your forehead like to your door.
Speaker 3:Straight out of my head.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like it's crazy, and I think it's also, you know, to a certain degree. Here specifically, there is so much cat and mouse like Tom and Jerry game that's being played by parents and kids. You know, and I always wonder do you really realize how damaging that is, how, like, imagine having that conversation, like this person does the right thing. They come and they talk to you and they and then you say, oh, you're going to college to me, dudes. Now you're don't trust me, now you're questioning my character, Now you're questioning my intention. This person thought I was. What did you say? No, hadji, hadji, hadji. I have this reputation of being a hadji, but then at home I'm being questioned. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:I swear, I did have a good reputation For those of you. Who's listening and knows me in college. I'm still mad.
Speaker 2:And then now you're doubting that at home.
Speaker 1:Why do you think there's such a flip? And from hearing you guys stories like back home marriage was a thing for the girls, i mean, obviously you know she would stay and wait for a proposal. But here it's like go to school, don't even look at the guy and all that stuff. It's the same thing, but then different as well. You know what I mean Now, like school is emphasized more to a certain extent And then after you get the degree, it's like okay, where's the husband?
Speaker 2:I don't think the issue is that school is emphasized more. I think that they just you could be sitting at home doing absolutely nothing and still is until you're a certain age. They just don't want you to talk to people, even without school. I know people that just came from back home that are like living here and they're young, like in their 20s, right, and they're not going to college, they're working and they still are not allowed to talk to anyone And I'm just like wait. So you're working and paying your bills and you know it's not even about independence, it's not about the fact that they're paying money for them, it's not about the fact that she has better things to do. She's going to work, coming home, that's like she's living a whole adult life, but because she's not a certain age, she's like not allowed to talk to people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i think in my family marriage was always emphasized, even from a young age. My parents, i feel like, almost knew that we were talking to people. You know what I mean. But my dad was actively trying to get us married, if that makes sense, from like a really early age, maybe from like 17, 18, 19.
Speaker 3:For me that wasn't even thought about.
Speaker 3:You have to find your own husband. But I want to go back to the question about why the educational aspect of it. Every family's different. We can't generalize the whole automobile community to one platform kind of thing. But for me, education was always the key. You have to make something of yourself, And number one, you're in America and you have this all opportunity. Make sure you take advantage of all of this. Be something, and then you can do that. And that is like the backseat of the car, not the front. The front has always been education. I recently graduated right. Everybody's asking for PhD.
Speaker 1:I'm like, i just like.
Speaker 3:I just breathed yesterday.
Speaker 2:Can I breathe today. So the thing is that in my household.
Speaker 3:Academic education, success is their success, for them And that's how they see it And like all my sisters, my younger sisters, are like masters and pharmacists and like they're really educated people, because encouraged. But then marriage is like, yeah, you need that too. It's kind of like marriage was like, yeah, you know, it's just a milestone, accessory, you know. But then you reach a certain age. Now that has to be another success you have to accomplish. Yeah, and nobody. Now it's at the forefront. Yes, right, like as soon as you reach 23, 24, it's at the forefront. If they did a little bit of what your dad was doing, kind of like already looking out for you, finding someone simultaneously as you are going to school, and then this proposal happened, that'd be great, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's the thing of it too, like it's not one or the other, it's like a blending of the thing. Yeah, focus on something, but then be with your kids in those conversations. You know what I mean, because I feel like I wished my parents had opened that door for me and like they knew, but I wish they just were like okay, how's it going? Sat down and actually talk to me about it.
Speaker 2:You know I'm listening to you guys and I'm realizing that again in another topic. we are having so different experiences, so I'm sure your parents were actively looking for someone for you.
Speaker 1:Even though they were.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even though they weren't necessarily giving you the roadmap and the blueprint into hey, this is what you should look for, they were looking for you, right. And the habit. They were telling you don't look, don't think about it until you are done with school And then magically bring this person in front of you right?
Speaker 1:No, magically he will show up, yeah, he will come to your graduation with the rosary, Exactly exactly with the ring and you'll follow them.
Speaker 2:That's the day the engagement happened on the day of the graduation.
Speaker 2:And then for me, i remember this, two conversations in my life, that very distinct conversations. One was with Naomi. She told me. She said school is not an issue. You have to think about getting married. She said, if I did it differently, i wish I could have gotten thought about getting married and having kids like sooner than I did, And I would do it that way. That was like really interesting to have that very rare heart to heart moment of her telling me I would have done it differently. So do it sooner, think about it sooner.
Speaker 2:And then there was the other part, where it was from Lucy, which was put make sure you don't neglect your education, make sure that you always, always strive for the better. So it was kind of contradictory like wait, like wait, get your education and then do that thing. Naomi was like do it simultaneously. It gave me the option of both. Was okay, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:So even when I was in college and I was, people were proposing to me I would go and tell Dorsey, not Naomi Dorsey, i would tell Dorsey and she would go to the Facebook and Instagram and do spying and ask people and she'd be like, oh, this person is kind of shady, this person is. You know, like I don't like this thing about this person, and so that comfort was there. But I wish I just had a clear roadmap before then. I wish you did it And my family. It was like not taboo. I guess my family's more liberal than you guys is, but, like I said, it was in my childhood. I was scared And my name was so important And I was, and I've heard stories of other people's kids that running away and doing this and I was so petrified of me.
Speaker 3:I was like you know what would you want them to tell you early on? in that case, i wanted to know that from both of you guys, like what would be the map that looks like for you guys, or you know understanding of this whole process?
Speaker 2:I wanted to know what toxic was. I wish someone explained that to me, For me. a person will never put a hand on me.
Speaker 3:Makes sense.
Speaker 2:They will never call me out of my name. So that boundary was set. I knew that. But then what about the emotional, subliminal, subliminal, subliminal, subliminal, subliminal damage a person can do? What about not being true to your word? What are other red flags, other than someone hitting you and other than someone calling you outside of?
Speaker 1:your name.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, like someone actually sitting down and having these conversations with me like walk away. when someone does this, walk away and pay attention. This is a no-go zone.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:And having that, i feel like my boundaries were created by me, using different stories from other people, but because they were. You know, anything that's built by one person and one person alone, it's not as strong as a person a thing that's built by a whole community Does that make sense.
Speaker 2:That one thing, that one mistake of like that one relationship wouldn't have happened, or it wouldn't have affected me the way it did, or it wouldn't have lasted. how long it lasted If I had an ear, if I had an older, wiser person to bounce it off with, like hey, this just happened. I mean, it feels off to me. Does it feel off to you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, guiding you through the whole process.
Speaker 3:Exactly I think that's really big to say, because I think that's what we're trying to get out in this conversation. is that, what are those roadmaps for early on? Like dude this? who do you talk to if you like someone, if your parents are not in that level to accommodate you, like Abshurah said earlier, because they might not know how to do it and doing the right way? what are those red flags? What are those things that you think might be harmful to you? Or what do you dislike? Do you start having that conversation early on with your friends, or listening to patcats, for example, or reading a book or watching other people's mistakes and learning from that? Because majority of a lot of people, that's what they do, but if you make a mistake, then would that be the end?
Speaker 1:of life. Yeah, i think for me, like what I wish for my parents would be, like I said earlier, just that communication and that comfortability for me to bring certain issues to them. But the other thing is I think what helped me out a lot is once I started to get into books and reading and reading on relationships and stuff like that. And then my mentor, he helped me out a lot too because he was somebody that I could like bounce things off of and I was like, okay, this happened and I'm thinking about marrying this person, what do you think? and stuff like that. So that really helped me too.
Speaker 2:I want to ask a question. Yeah, when the people that were courting you at the time, what was like the biggest red flag that you didn't see coming Or you didn't understand at the time, was a red flag.
Speaker 1:I think the biggest thing I didn't understand at the time were, as you were talking to people in courting them, morphing and almost changing who they are as a person to fit what narrative they had of me as a person Being the daughter of a sheikh or whatever. They respected my dad and all this stuff, but they automatically were like, okay, the person that probably would impress her was a religious person, so then their appearances might change, they might grow out of beard, blah, blah and all this stuff. So at the time I was so young that I didn't realize. But now, looking back, i'm like, okay, what the heck? That was so weird. Like why would you do that?
Speaker 3:Right Yeah.
Speaker 1:Tell me, what about you.
Speaker 3:Love bombing.
Speaker 2:Love bombing.
Speaker 3:So it's like constantly complimenting you, telling you that you're in love with you. You're this.
Speaker 1:You know I get so turned off by that. I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, i do too. I see it's. it's a attachment style thing. Love bombing like excessively telling me how much they feel about me, not without knowing me. They don't know me, oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, i'm turned off by that too.
Speaker 3:How can you love me within the month that you know me? In what month? You don't know nothing about me? How can you be in love with me, or those type of things, and you're?
Speaker 2:not doing anything that you're not? yeah, you're not talking to my parents, you're not trying, you're not moving in a way from like, but you're telling me that you love me. How does that make sense? Make it make sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and at that point movies and romances they just like Oh my God, that is so cute. But that said even though I was like it's kind of weird that this person's excessively liking me so much.
Speaker 1:I don't even like them.
Speaker 3:That was probably a red flag. I would say anyone, when they love bomb you, you have to know that that person doesn't know you. And they just there for performing something for themselves, to get your attention and thinking that they actually care, but they actually don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think one thing that our parents don't tell us, because of this lack of communication and this lack of mapping, is that sometimes there are things within you that you need to improve before you can be in a relationship with someone else, and I feel the best people to tell you that are those that are close to you. For example, if you're a people pleaser, someone needs to tell you yeah, we get that in check before you get in a relationship with somebody because they've developed co-dependency.
Speaker 2:Co-dependency Or if you are someone that like needs affirmations from like. If you're not, if you're insecure or whatever, and then you're getting in a relationship with someone that's either going to use that insecurity against you or, like, if you're in security about your body, if you're in security, you know whatever that tech you're insecure about. If you don't get that in check before you're in a relationship with somebody, then they could use that information, that insecurity against you in a form of control.
Speaker 2:So getting that at least pinpointing, hey, this is having that safe space and having that comfortability, having that trust to be able to say that right, and if anyone says it, sometimes it could just do more harm than good. So I want to ask you guys, what is that one thing about you back then that you wish someone told you before you know you entertain this person? You should get that in check.
Speaker 3:I would be helpful for someone to tell me learn to advocate for yourself, learn to stand up for yourself, learn to say no to people you don't have to say you don't have to just kind of do everything they ask of you blind, and also learn to not blindly trust every information they throw at you.
Speaker 1:Sometimes questioning it.
Speaker 3:Ask them is like are you sure about that? Like does that make sense to you?
Speaker 3:You know, it's okay, even though you might not know. But like don't flat out just believe all the things that they tell you because, like I should have was saying earlier, some people just perform to impress you so they can get with you. So if you question their behavior, that would be like huh, let me ask you about that, why do you do that? And then that would tell you a little bit of. Maybe they have better explaining. But I think those are the things that I would want. I wish I knew more of it, but I have to say, a teenager in earlier 20s, you don't understand that much of all of it, but you learn a lot of that with experience, i would say. But I would advise people to like, always advocate for yourself. Yeah, what about you? I'm sure?
Speaker 1:I think for me, the biggest thing is people pleasing and also not really knowing what I wanted. What do I like, what do I don't like in a person, characteristics and all this stuff. It took me, i feel like after marriage to really figure all of that out and to know exactly what I want and then to communicate it, because I feel like even you yourself you don't know what you want. How are you going to tell somebody You expect this person to guess, but you yourself don't even know? So doing that work, and before marriage, i feel like, is one of the biggest things I would do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for me, i think I needed to grieve my parents. because I didn't grieve my parents. I was so scared of losing people and I was so scared of people walking out of my life. So I held on to people friends, people that were courting me until my fingers bled, right, like I would hold on so much because for me, the only kind of loss that I experienced was death, right. So if I lost somebody while they're not dead, then it's on me Like there is a rejection of me. So I feel like that was one of my toxic traits was that I held on until my fingers bled.
Speaker 1:What would you guys say to people who might be in the situation currently? you know they're courting, they can't really talk to their parents. What is that roadmap? I feel like we still have not defined steps. What's that roadmap? Yeah, and steps to get to marriage.
Speaker 2:It depends, because I had to create my own roadmap, i had to make sure that I wrote down. I really sat down and wrote down what kind of person I was, what are my pros, what are my cons. Honestly because I can't lie to myself, right, these are my strengths, these are my weaknesses, this is what I bring to the table and then write down what I want the other person to bring to the table, and normally what you want from another person is so much more than what you expect from yourself or what you bring up.
Speaker 2:I believed in this idea of magnetism You attract who you are. So I strived to be whoever I wanted to I wanted to be married to. I remember clearly making this list of this guy that I wanted And I always tell people don't make your list short. Have a list of your non-negotiables and have a list of even the silly stuff. I want him to have good fingernails, i don't know. Whatever the case is right. Have that list so that you can strive to be that. You want an ambitious person, be an ambitious person. If you want a successful person, be a successful person. If you want a religious person, be a religious person. So you're not working for another person, you're working on yourself. You can't lose when you're working on yourself.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:And then also, when you're writing those things, write what kind of character do you want him to have? I want him to be funny, i want him to be smart, i want him to do this, i want him to do that, i want him to value this. Writing it down is so important, because you can visualize what you want. And then also what you don't want.
Speaker 1:What if you already did that, you already in the relationship, the courting process, then what do you do then? And you don't have that relationship with your parents where you can come and ask them questions and stuff like that?
Speaker 2:I don't think you should ever be in a relationship, but actually boyfriend, girlfriend. I know that's crazy for me, the liberal person, to say that, but I think it's okay to talk, it's okay to have a conversation. If you're a girl, always pay for your shit, always pay for your stuff, a total believer in that. That way there's no burden of you all have something or him expecting something from you, because unfortunately there's this culture in this country and I don't know if it's another country's where if someone does something for you, if they buy you flowers, if they buy you a birthday but take you out, then there's the expectation of either you guys are supposed to be in, romantically linked, and boyfriend, girlfriend, no, we're friends until you have a ring on my finger, absolutely Until you're willing to go talk to my family, and I think that's okay. Hey, i have platonic friends right, me and you are talking to get more than that. You didn't date me, you didn't talk, we're just talking. You don't get to touch me, you don't get.
Speaker 1:Because it's a slippery slope Once you start going down that path, and then you guys don't get married. and then you've done all of this.
Speaker 2:When your friends, that wall is down, that person can really have a conversation that's real, versus when you're dating, if that makes sense. So if your intention is for something else, first of all, guys, I suggest that you guys make that very clear from the beginning and then, for girls, make where they stand. Hey, okay, it's good that you have this intention And I would like to explore that. But then the only form and the only way we can explore that is in a way of friendship, and I want you to be okay with that, and the only thing that we And I think that I Not even friendship.
Speaker 1:I feel like there should be an area or a label where you're not friends, because once you friended somebody, i find it hard to see a life in the future with them, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Yeah, you know. Like when you say boyfriend, girlfriend, there's so much connotation around that. But when your friends and you were friends that are trying to get somewhere else, you're not friends trying to Like platonic friends, your friends trying to be husband and wife, that's a different thing for me. Once you guys figure out you guys don't want to be together, you guys are not going to be friends. Class, you know. But so I think that's what I mean by that. I don't know what the word would be for that.
Speaker 3:So your question was what advices do you have for someone who's already courting? Is that correct? Yes, so if they're already courting, i would definitely say that if they're not that close with their mom and they're afraid of their mom, they need to find another person that they feel comfortable with to talk to and saying, hey, i'm really interested in this person and they're interested in me. I don't know how to talk to my parents And that person can be an aunt or somebody that's close to your family member and they can be the mediator Instead of you tell that person and that person will tell their mom, and to kind of create a soft oh, i think meat. Yes, exactly, and then that would be another way to kind of navigate that. But if you already have a good relationship with your mom or your mom is open, much more open than your dad, then you talk to your mom.
Speaker 3:This person is interested in me. What do you think And I think for the most part I have to be biased. You know what I'm saying A lot of our women in our life are much more easier to talk to compared to the other people, compared to our dads, because we don't think we have built that, or men in our life, built that relationship where we're like, hey, this person is interested in me, can you talk to dad with me? No, unless you have older brother or older sister. When it comes to like a lot of the boys who are born in America, at least, or grow up here, they're a little bit easier to like get your back and they're not going to be like, oh, i can't believe you're doing that.
Speaker 3:No, they're going to say yeah this is kind of hard, but I'm just going to be sitting in the room with you because I might not be able to speak on behalf of you, kind of those type of things. If not, i would say read a book, and there are good Islamic book that would help you to navigate that. And then another thing is I listened to podcasts like this one that would also help you kind of trying to figure out. Okay, these are the issues that I'm dealing with And then throwing as a questions and those questions that you may have like, look, i'm really interested in this person, we both are interested. What advice is our suggestion Do you guys have? Yeah, then we can kind of help, you know, navigate you in that area.
Speaker 3:And I think also I wanted to emphasize and the idea of shame is the fact is that what you're doing as long as you're not acting on it from religious perspective, if you like someone, if you're interested in someone, if you wanted to get married, whether you're 19 or 20 or 21, what you're doing if you talk to the right people, it's okay. Don't feel like you're embarrassment to your family because you like somebody. You are not embarrassment. You're doing the natural human evolution when it comes to relationships.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would just say that, yes, your feelings are valid and stuff like that, but make it official as soon as possible and don't let Shaytan take advantage of you and the fact that you don't have a good relationship with your parents and you don't have this open channel, because then you'll be like, okay, if I can't do it the whole other way, it's so hard. then you know, there's a million non-hello ways that are easier and accessible.
Speaker 3:When boys and men and women are in the same room. Third person is Shaytan so just be mindful about that. Even in your conversation there has to be a boundary that you have. when you're talking to whoever you're courting, It's like, hey, let's not cross this area, Let's keep it. it's a behind the line.
Speaker 2:Set clear, clear boundaries. I think that's one thing you guys are very clear on. And I think one thing I want to say for the parents is that we think about the dinners. Like white people bringing their boyfriends over for dinner, their girlfriends over for dinner right, Try to think about that into the culture, that version of that that you're comfortable with. I mean, you might not invite that person to the culture, but like two families, coming together.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the families.
Speaker 2:Think about that when you're raising your child. Have that open mindedness to okay, how can I adapt that into my culture? You adapt a lot of things into your culture, right Once you're living here. Think about that format, Because that way, if a guy is introduced to the girl's family, then the chances of that guy hurting that girl is lowered because her parents know him, Her brothers know him. Yeah, right.
Speaker 3:It's great And I think this is a great conversation And I hope we did justice to this topic And I feel like we all have been thinking about this and it's been very concerning to talk about our own experience. We're trying to prevent future generation auto mode diasporas to have healthy, fruitful conversation with their parents, so that way that they'll have sustainable and healthy relationship, And so that was our intention And I hope that resonates for you as an audience and Jazakulah and for listening And join the conversation.
Speaker 1:I'm sure there are a lot of creative solutions that you have thought about or people in your life have thought about, or if you have a situation that works, please let us know. We really want to know and want to share it with others as well.
Speaker 2:Thank you, salamu alaykum everybody Waalaikussalam.
Speaker 1:Waalaikussalam, join the conversation in the comments section or on our Instagram page to share with us what you think. We do not have all the answers and our biggest goal is to kick off and get the conversation going. May Allah SWT accept our efforts and use us as catalysts for change.