Difficult Conversations
Difficult Conversations
Young Men's Perspective: Nabeel and Mustafa
In this episode, we explore the lessons learned from past relationships and the significance of maintaining loyalty to Allah within them. The complexities of young dating are laid bare, and we grapple with the challenges they present, never shying away from the tough questions. How do shifts in environment, commitment levels, and life experiences impact the growth of relationships? Is it possible to meet the right person at the wrong time? How can we trust Allah's plan in the face of such uncertainties?
This episode doesn't just stop at the personal level. We also venture into the realm of parenting, discussing how to address the topic of dating and relationships with children. Are there differences in approach based on whether the conversation is from a father's or a mother's perspective? We also tackle the social pressures faced by young adults in college, offering insights into how to navigate this challenging time. From understanding the power of the environment and its influence on our children, to exploring the parenting techniques that can empower them with resilience, this episode is a treasure trove of reflections, insights, and heartfelt discussions.
Tune in to hear about two young men's perspective on love, dating and marriage.
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As-salamu alaikum, welcome to difficult conversations where we tackle taboo topics in a safe space through empowerment and education.
Speaker 2:As-salamu alaikum everyone. Thank you so much for coming Wa alaikum as-salam, thank you for having us. Nice to meet you both, Nabila and Staffal.
Speaker 4:Nice to meet you too.
Speaker 2:What part of Minnesota, where area do you guys live? Just give us general forms.
Speaker 3:I live in Minneapolis.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:I grew up in St.
Speaker 4:Paul, so born and raised in St Paul. St Paul, baby, my whole life, oh my god.
Speaker 2:What part of St Paul?
Speaker 4:On the west side of St Paul. It's closer to Oakdale too.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So it's not too far, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, St Paul is a very big city, but for us suburbs, yeah, I always lived in the north suburb, like close to Maple Grove, Plymouth area, as long as I lived in Minnesota. That's the area that I lived in. What about you, Vani?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I got off the boat and could rapids and then we moved 10 minutes to Blaine. I finished my high school there. When me and my husband got married we had an apartment in Fridley and then we moved back. So like my whole life I've been in those three 10 minute radius of spaces. Yeah, it's so funny too, because I'm the person that expected that I would go to New York and disappear into the city and never come back here. I would say that you know the Hallmark movies.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's what everybody says. Yeah, at the beginning of their high school career, they're like yeah, bro, I want to go far away, explore my own business and that Come to find out.
Speaker 2:You end up going to school, you get your degree here and you get married here, Thank you. What does that say about us, though, Honestly, as in just in general, as an automobile community? A lot of us we liked we collectively in one area.
Speaker 3:Yeah, honestly, I just think that that just means that we want to stick together and we need each other at the end of the day, because we want to have a good sense of community. I also feel sticking together that shows that. I see this they want to have a reminder of how a back home feels like to stay over people not being outside in a country that they're not really familiar with. So, yeah, I was just saying they just want to have a strong sense of community and also that reminder of what the sense of back home feels like.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because I feel like, or when people they want to stay there because they need each other.
Speaker 2:That's true.
Speaker 3:Especially how there's supermarkets and all my own businesses they want to like. They rather go to the arm-own businesses than like a white person or like some other type of business? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's very interesting. What about you? I've?
Speaker 4:been looking at it. I feel it's much drama. There might be a little bit of a hand there, but at the end of the day, we still want to get at each other's back. You know what I mean, tokuma? That's what we represent. So if one of our brothers and sister falls down, we'll gather as a community and then help each other back up. So I feel like we just want to stay closer together so we can grow up each other and learn more from each other, and things like that. Well, stuff is said it's such a bad call, it's such a community.
Speaker 2:When it comes to social environment, like friends, how is that like in high school, for example? Where did you guys go to high school? Where do you go to college now? I also want to understand a little bit about your social environment. What does that look like for you guys as well?
Speaker 1:Did you guys gravitate towards Ottoman people or that kind of stuff?
Speaker 3:I'd say like I could have our own people around, like I'd be friends with a lot of our own people. But because, like my environment, my schooling, I like mostly rub around Somalis more but the end of the day I didn't pay attention to that, I just paid attention to whatever really I want to be around. I don't really like care about ethnicity, but I feel like coming out of high school I feel like I started gravitating more towards Oromo people and started sticking with them because deeper in relationship with them. At the same time, most of the people that are Oromo I mostly grew up with everyone and I know a lot of Oromos Minnesota.
Speaker 3:So just growing up with them, we shared that kind of everything together, because we either went to Dukes together or we know we've seen each other through much streets, or our parents know each other, so we all have some kind of childhood experience with each other. I feel like that's what that kind of led me towards gravitating towards them later on.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, for me too. My elementary days I went to almost like 98% Somali school, and so we had some Oromos there too. Growing up, I wanted to be around people that looked like me. So, whether you're a Somali Oromo because at the end of the day, of course we're like a politic about all Somali Oromo, but we're not as different as people may think, and high school, too, the Somali, somali Oromos just stick together. We're like the East Africans too, like the Sudanese and we don't want to throw them out.
Speaker 4:So the Horn of Africa is like staying strong. We're really that one. So that's how it was for me in high school too. We all stuck together. Coming out of high school, we all took different paths right and the college I go to like Mustafa said, I have a deeper connection with my Oromo people. Of course, oromo, oromo. That's one thing we already have in common. We could build from there.
Speaker 1:I'd like to surround myself around that more and, yeah, Do you feel like having people from the same area, same region, either the Horn of Africa in general or Oromo, somali, depending on how on micro or you want to go? Do you think that also protects you from certain things? Because for me when I was in high school because I went to Blaine, it was like white central. So our circle was fear African. You stuck together and that understanding of our parents don't mess around School is very important. So, like when we had that kind of circle, it kept us from messing around in our grades. And then when I gravitated towards I mean we didn't have a lot of foreign people, but I gravitated towards Muslim Africans, because then now we have the same boundaries and they're not going to tell me, hey, let's go out at 6pm because they know that's what I'm supposed to be home. So was that also like maybe an unconscious consequence of you guys surrounding yourselves with the same type of people?
Speaker 4:Yeah, for the majority, for the most part, we would say our parents are strict. I'll put that in quotes. I want to really say strict. Well, more like you see the white kids going out and coming home. Let's say 10pm is their curfew. We might have to be home like multiple times before it gets dark outside. You wouldn't really have to explain that to your friends, say like we're your two white friends. Oh yeah, mom, come home 10. 10? What are you doing outside Instead of going like you know, hey, you have to come home late and it's grown up. I noticed it but I didn't really question it Because at the end of the day, it's like for our safety. Different families have different norms and it made sense. So I guess maybe that could be like a subconscious reason why I'll like start myself around more people like me. They wouldn't really like really question like things like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't have to explain yourself or feel bad.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I agree with you Basically. I feel like I said, I subconsciously grew towards or got closer with them, because you don't have to explain yourself. You guys were all in the same boat. Everyone knew that if you did this, our parents were all tweaked collectively. And also, if you hang out with someone else that didn't have that idea of discipline or that kind of rule, then it's more like the outsider, especially if you're hanging with them, because then you're the one that has to be home before everyone else and they're all like why are you? You know, like it just didn't. You didn't feel right, you didn't feel like you fit in. So being with people that's like you, it makes you feel comfortable, especially in that high school environment, because high school is a very scary place. High school, you got to find your right crowd or otherwise you're going to be lost. It's good yeah.
Speaker 3:So I guess that's probably like one of the reasons why you should have to stay with your people.
Speaker 2:Would you say that your parents had a different expectation for you guys as part of being just high school students and eventually directly going into colleges? Whether it's social expectation, academic expectation, what are some expectations that did you guys have?
Speaker 3:My expectation is to get all A's nose lach and get my missing assignments and no missing assignments, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You'd be on top of my school and on top of that just, I guess, just be a good kid, I guess, for that kind of standard being obedient, listen to what they say and not like crazy, going how to explain Rebellious yeah, rebellious and doing what a lot of these other kids be doing. Sometimes there's kids that we end up going on shows where they have to go to JDC or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's JDC?
Speaker 3:JDC is basically. It's a place where kids go. It's like a jail and they see what they see. They kind of teach them. Oh, this is going to happen to you.
Speaker 1:Oh, like scarce.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like scarce kind of like that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, JDC is a juvenile detention.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly that's what it is.
Speaker 1:Why would they do that?
Speaker 3:Well, I do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no the kids. If you mess up the love, I know, but I'm missing something.
Speaker 2:Say more.
Speaker 3:So yeah, like I was saying they would go to like something like scarce street or like they say, you end up in. Jdc because a lot of kids in high school there's a lot of kids that stray and become bad when they my parents use as an example don't be like those, just be school straight, and all that kind of stuff. That's the expectation we had. But at the same time, though, it's not the same because everyone's grows up differently.
Speaker 1:That's. I can't imagine. Correct me if this is not the same for you guys. When I was in high school, if an automobile person got that, I would see what is it? Scared straight or JDC.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Given all the things you said Forget even truancy, right Allah, that parent would have a heart attack. They would either? Have you guys been threatened about being sent back home?
Speaker 4:Yes, oh, jokingly yeah.
Speaker 2:Is that even a joke, though? What is a threat?
Speaker 4:I don't think. I think they use that to instill fear in me. Yeah, Kind of, go with it. Are you going back over right now? Are you serious? I don't want to go to school. You guys came here to raise me here just to send me back to where you guys slept.
Speaker 1:Don't like to, doesn't make sense.
Speaker 4:They scared me. Okay, let's go, it just keeps you on your toes. But how would I say that's what kept me on my toes? Maybe for other parents, cause it's common for kids to be like yeah bro, my mom says she's gonna send me back home if I do this. My dad says he's gonna send me back home. But I think it goes back into the factor of this one. So it was like they don't wanna send you back home because they don't like you. They see that you're not doing good here. Let's see if we can put you in this environment and see if you might do better. So that's how I-.
Speaker 2:What was the expectation for you then? Like Mustafa said earlier, what did they expect for you as a Nabil? What does Nabil look, supposed to look like, according to your parents?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So girl Nabil started with just a young age and I'm like I finished crying eight years old.
Speaker 1:I mean, I guess.
Speaker 4:I got a lot of luck and then so it was like Breyan, oh, nabil's got half a straight A story. I was the kid that all my younger cousins that they'd be a role model for these guys.
Speaker 2:You're a good person.
Speaker 4:Don't stray this way, Don't look like this, don't do this and you should be good, Get your degree engineer, doctor, like the basic-. It's like engineer, doctor, lawyer, yeah, yeah yeah, that's how it was for me, so it was like just I guess the typical expectations.
Speaker 2:The general expectation for the normal kids?
Speaker 4:Yeah, for normal kids, I'll say African kids too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, you're right, absolutely.
Speaker 3:And one thing I noticed is that, like all African parents, either doctor, engineer, especially medical field, they want you to go to medical high-level.
Speaker 2:Because that's a scarcity and guaranteed jobs right. For them is that because we come from environment of survival and financial and security is the things that they worry so much about it. They don't think about go follow your passion or stuff like that. But I also want to challenge that because I think sometimes art is good. There's other ways of doing things. We can't just do one way. But going back to your college, like, are you both right now in college?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, we're both in college right now, freshman and college.
Speaker 2:Freshman? Yeah, how are you?
Speaker 1:Awesome. So I wanted to ask you guys something. To just go back to high school a little bit, because you guys talked about high school and you guys talked about how your parents talked to you about, or maybe you talked about how your parents said we struggled here to bring you guys here so that you can get education, and so on and so forth. Have your parents ever talked to you about other things and about that come up in high school? Maybe that is relationships or like crushes, or how to interact with other gender, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, I remember one time, you know, riding around with my father. I was in seventh grade, around seventh grade, and he was like Nabil, you're getting old, watch out for girls, they get to put you the wrong way, stay focused on school, don't focus on them. And then every since then I was like what is this guy talking about? But as I grew older, I started to realize what he meant.
Speaker 1:What did you think came in?
Speaker 4:When you're in high school, a lot of things that might get you distracted, so it was a typical couple, for example oh how's that, what is that, what is that about? And there's a lot of people like that seem to have their mind more focused on that than what they should focus on, so to say, for me, I gotta be on top of my school, there's a girl or something that might throw me off, and things like that. So that's how I looked at it.
Speaker 2:So give me an example, because I think the majority of our assumption in high school is like boys and girls are interested in each other or they have crushes. If you like someone, you don't directly tell them you like them, but you spend a lot of quality time with them between classes or maybe on the weekends you guys hang out and go out to see movies or stare at them from the forest Exactly or just stop being that soul who's just gonna have crush on that person for the rest of your high school career and then after that, yeah, I had one crush in high school, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:But tell us more about both of you guys' experience in that frame Within the boys, do you guys talk about girls? How is that socially?
Speaker 3:I guess with the boys me growing up, the way I seen it and the way in my class and stuff we didn't really focus on girls. We would mostly be like we would see a girl and be like, oh she's pretty, it's like that, or you should go talk to her, try to be their friend first, but at the same time we were more focused on physical activities in school and stuff like that. But growing up into high school, later on to high school towards the end stuff, we'd probably, I guess, like what you said before that, quality time, try to get to know them, try to spend time. So I guess it's just there, but not too focused, not too much of a crush, but just try to vibe.
Speaker 1:So let's focus a little bit more on the little thought you do focus on, like how you said oh, this girl is cute, let's be friends. Give me the characteristics of that girl that someone like you or someone like you would talk to or want to be friends with, just get to know a little bit more.
Speaker 3:For me growing up. I have a question Are you speaking on the aspect of high school or is it now? Because I feel like in both cases I like different.
Speaker 1:Let's start with high school. You just actually born, yeah, and then give us what you want.
Speaker 4:Because I can answer the question. But it's going to start from young, because I come from an environment I have no brothers. I grew up with an all around woman. It was mostly my mom, my grandma and both my sisters.
Speaker 4:So I was like I grew up with no brothers. Father was there, but he wasn't really there. So I was like I grew up having girlfriends. Me and my younger sister were similar in age so I was like that's normal For me. The same neighborhood would play together, play outside together, go to community field trips with each other and went to the same school. The girlfriends I had in high school were typically the same ones I had grown up so it wasn't really like once I was looking for it I might be like, oh, ok, I think this girl's cool, I'm going to be friends with her to try to get to know her. It wasn't really like that for me personally. My personal experience, and as I grow older too, you meet more people and you see different things. So it's all right, I have a class with this person. They might be the same as me. Oh, she's another automobile girl. All right, ok, cool, let me get to know her so we can help each other in class. It didn't really go deeper than that, but sometimes it might.
Speaker 1:But yeah, you have no idea how much I understand you, because I grew up with brothers and their friends would come over and I saw that interaction and they treated me like little sister. So growing up I had a lot of guy friends and then, because I was surrounded with a lot of men, I knew how to talk to men more and clearly and with no ish better than I knew how to talk to women. Have you ever been misunderstood?
Speaker 4:Yeah, out of the guys out of school I probably would have the most. I'll be around the girls made probably the most. What is this guy doing? Oh, oh, and the biggest, all the girls. Oh, he's always around them like that. But it was really like that because, like you said, how your experience was for your brothers, it was like me. For my sisters too, it was the same thing. I know how to talk to those girls. It wasn't weird between us, it was just they're like one of the bros to me. You know what I mean? They were one of the guys. So that's how it was for me.
Speaker 1:Your instinct is not something weird, it's just chill, it's just like just another person.
Speaker 4:I just look at them like another guy.
Speaker 1:So normally you're like oh, this person's out of our, this person's Muslim, like we can get together and do homework together and that's honestly how it is. Or oh, she's out of my sister Like I need to get to know her versus oh, she cute, let me get to know her.
Speaker 4:It was. If I'm being honest, it was never really like that. It started off as I smart friend, let's do home together, and then probably later on they'll transition. And then the guys around me will question me. I'm like no, it's not what you like. Why are you just friends like with these people? Like there you go, they'll just start to question me and ask me, like if I was like they start to question my sexuality. I won't put this way. I was around them so much Right, and like every time like girls are like brought up, or she's cute, she's cute. I'm just mute, I don't talk. Ok, yeah, do you have something to say?
Speaker 4:No, I don't have nothing to say and I felt like that was like more out of respect, because they're not used to having a lot of girlfriends like that. So it's like for me it was more so. This is how it was from.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. I have never related to someone more. That's so awesome. Yeah, Mustafa. What about you?
Speaker 3:For me. My experience was entirely different than his. I didn't have a lot of girlfriends. Actually, I just hang with the guys just like that. What?
Speaker 1:do you mean girls that are friends? Right, yeah, girls that are friends. That's what I meant.
Speaker 3:But I just hang with the guys. We did just mostly around guys and I didn't have that many friends that are girls. But going back to your question before you saying, oh, what would I look for? And someone that was like I like you something, I guess, because I didn't have any girlfriends like that it would start off as friends. So, and if I like and obviously like I'd like someone that I could talk to and like relate to too, because back then being friends with a girl was still like a mystery because I didn't understand girls at the same time, because I was around guys for the most part, eventually, every time when I did get a friend, I was a girl, like I valued the friendship because I never had that friend on that other side.
Speaker 3:I guess it's like that. So I started off as friends and then eventually, when I started to understand them or I started getting each other and I just got to, then that's when you catch feelings and then you try to do what you want to do, but at the same time, though, that's just like how I went about it in high school, just like I was just more chill. I never really like like pursue all she's cute. Let me like try and get her snap or get her numbers, and like that I never really like pursued, like that, I just let everything play out smoothly. So that's just how like.
Speaker 1:So what does let me be her friend mean? Let's say for example how do you determine that? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:How do you determine that? What are some criteria, some ways for you to know, for you, that this is the person that I can be friends with.
Speaker 3:I don't really go and say I have to be a friend, like kind of force or anything. It could be like what Nabil was saying If they have the same class you can go study with them and try to get them. See if I can get some help.
Speaker 1:Just like organic yeah exactly.
Speaker 3:So just try to like, get help or something, try to study or maybe just start to have a conversation with them, see if you have any common interests or anything. Like you guys watch the same shows or like movies or maybe listen to the same music or anything, and I guess that's like a way to tell oh, I could be your friend or something like that. Okay, so that's just how I went about it.
Speaker 1:That's so cool. That's also why I feel like the word friend zone pisses me off, because nobody gets friend zoned, can you?
Speaker 2:just say how. Actually, I want to know their thought. Okay, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, what is a friend zone for you?
Speaker 4:Both. I think it depends on your initial intention. I'm going to tell you like this let's break it down. All right, my friends see this girl, right, she thinks she's cute. He wants to get to know her, and they aren't going the way how he pictured it. Oh okay, I want to be more than friends with her, but she's not budging, she just wants to stay there. That's what I would call the friends Like, because you were trying to goals for something more than friends and then you're stuck. It's like a block, it's a wall, and I think that's what the friends on would be, and that's only there. If the intention of something else being, ie more than friends, was there, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree with exactly what you said, because it depends on exactly what you want it to do at first. So if you want to be more friends more than friends with her, and if you want to confess your feelings with her, I see it like. I'll give you guys an analogy If you want to jump two steps right, If your intention was to jump those two steps and you end up and jumping on one step, then that's when you feel like your friends on you didn't get what you wanted to do. You got pushed down, Like you got demoted or like you know got. So that's why I feel like that's where the friends on plays in.
Speaker 2:How do you handle that, though? In that case, would you be able to be direct about telling this girl look, I like you and I want to get to know you and she's okay, I just want to be your friend. And if she wants to be your friend, can you patiently be her, just her friend, without being the nice guy who also hoping one day things can change?
Speaker 1:Or being like you, ugly anyway yeah.
Speaker 3:It depends on the route you take at the same time. So if you want to take the slow route, being their friend and trying to like, if you want to be their friend with the intention of being more their friends, you got to like flare a little bit, throw in the hits and stuff like that, and at the same time, when someone that goes to go that route they have to like in order for them to proceed, they have to get like the same energy back. I feel like in that case, like most guys, they would just be like I can't be friends with that person After that because I guess their pride gets broken off.
Speaker 3:That yeah, Because then it's I'm not good enough. So why would I be their friend at the end of the day?
Speaker 1:You never want it to be the friend to begin with, exactly, and I think that's one distinction I feel like there is right from what you said initially, which is I go, my intention is the friendship, and if anything happens after that, then Qutarallah versus the person's intention is to be something else. But then they're going the route of friendship and then they get stuck at this front space and they get frustrated or like they say that I'm being friends, okay, If they were going like the route of the friendship.
Speaker 3:I feel, like most people, they don't get that frustrated when they don't like proceed, Because then it's like it saves the humility of actually like trying.
Speaker 2:The safety net? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:But if you was to like jump until they're like yo, I want to be more than friends. Yeah, I like you, oh okay, and then she's all I want to be friends. Then best on the pride comes in.
Speaker 1:You're like I got to cut it out. I can't Right Qutarallah.
Speaker 4:Personally, I've never been in a situation where I've been friends on or even being close to friends on, because my nature was, if I was friends with an opposite gender, if I was friends with a girl, I didn't see anything more than that. That wasn't even my intention. I didn't look past that. So was I? If I was to ever be friends on, like Mustafa said, I would probably just if I was like trying to go for something else. So now I could just be friends.
Speaker 2:Are you saying you'd be satisfied with just having the friendship after you being friends on?
Speaker 4:Oh no, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be, I can't do it If I'm trying to pursue something and I become friends on. It's got to be rejected.
Speaker 1:It's part of the process. The moment a guy says I'm interested in you, girls normally automatically either know because they've known that person, their person's personality, they've known how they feel around that person, the comfort level. Normally automatically they know that this is the person. Okay, this could work out, or this cannot work out. It's too weird. It's just there, regardless of if you're hot or if you're not, it doesn't matter. They normally know there are people, there are girls that are like okay, I could see this working out, but I'm not there, I'm not in where you are feeling wise, oh, you're there, you're in love with me, all that stuff, but then I'm not there. I've always seen you like my friend. I can get there sometime, though Versus, yeah, this ain't working out. You're just my friend.
Speaker 2:Not always. I think it depends. It really depends on the girl. It depends on what you were seeing earlier the environment of some girls who are generally being friends with boys, versus girls who are not. Some girls are very oblivious about the whole situation. When it comes out it comes as a shock. That's where the rejection may feel like a rejection for the other gender. The processing has to happen. Then after that they might even change their mind. But then there are the girls who will be friends with boys, who understand yeah, he's just my friend. I don't see beyond that. I guess it depends to answer that question. But generally I know girls who have no idea the guy that their friends would like them, even though he was doing all the things that you would think somebody like you did it. All of us knew, but she didn't. So there's that situation too.
Speaker 1:I know you don't move like that, but if you did move like that, let's say this person that you haven't been friends with, or you are someone who has, whatever what does that person look like?
Speaker 4:What boxing do they have to check? So yeah, what I talked about, I haven't really experienced that, but there was this one girl.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about this one girl.
Speaker 4:There was this one girl, so it was like we went to school together. There's a lot of the other girls on school. She wasn't no different from any other girl I was friends with in the beginning. Then, when you start to communicate with somebody more, you start talking to them. Talking to someone more, you start listening to them more, and vice versa. That's where thoughts start to process. This was me in high school, early in high school, and it's okay, you're doing more for me than I would say, like my other woman friends are doing more for me, but I still had you in the same box, in the same category as all of them. But the more I see you do some more different things, the more like you start to leave that box and you start to get put into another box. So yeah, like I said, for example, talking like communication, like a lot of communication, I'll talk to you more than I'll talk to anybody else. And if that starts to just go on and go on, it's okay. I think I like this girl.
Speaker 2:That's the evolution of friendship and eventually, relationship and liking someone right. The more time you spend with them, the more you talk to them, the more conversation and you've seen their perspective, how they think. Then you get curious, right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's one way it could start off too. But then, like where we were talking about before, if you had an intention with the relationship with somebody, that could be different too, because, okay, you want to get to know the person more, that's what you're going for. But me, I was at the point where I was just friends, but then our chemistry was just different. Is we start to connect more? Because the more I get to know you, it's all. Okay, I see myself in you a little bit. Oh, we share the same ideas on some things. Morals might be the same, we might disagree on some things, but we could talk about it. It won't be too bad. So it was like, like you said, the evolution from friendship to relationship. I feel like that's what I was experiencing, and what made that different was just I'm not sure it was just, I don't know. I don't know how to explain it it was just different.
Speaker 1:It was just different. Yeah, so, if you don't mind, tell us a little bit more about that experience, that moment or that time period in your life with that specific person when you were friends with them, or if it did morph into something else. How did that go? If it's still going on, what did you learn from it? How did, first of all? How did it start? How did it end up morphing from a friendship to a relationship or a friendship to talking, whatever it morphed to? And then what were you learning as it went on?
Speaker 4:Like I said, how it started. It was started like how I'll be friends with everybody else, met this person in middle school, right, and it was now. Social media is very prevalent. I would say now, right, and we just ended up exchanging numbers from Snapchat. So it was like I miss this game. I don't know if you guys are familiar not to call you guys old with I don't know if you guys are familiar with it, I don't know. So I was like I have numbers and you could play like a variety of different games. It could be A-Ball, it could be chess, it could be a variety of different moves that you could play with anybody. You know what I mean. So I was like, okay, cool, but I was doing this with everybody as well too. But it was like, okay, I'm doing this more with you, all right. And then the more I started to do with you, I wasn't thinking much of it, but then it wouldn't go from texting, it would go from phone calls down. So that's what happened.
Speaker 4:And then this person. So she ended up being my best friend, okay, so I was like we're just friends, all right, now you're my best friend. Okay, I tell you some of my secrets. You tell me your secrets. And it was like that for a long time. I was still friends with this girl when she had dealings with another person. You know what I mean. So I was like I'll still be best friend, she will tell me about everything that she had going on. It was just like that sense of comfortability and then her and dude and didn't end up working out.
Speaker 4:But me it was like, all right, I think I might like this girl, right. But it was like, okay, we're just friends though. I'm like right now I'm just like her support system. She could be mine. Nothing intimate was like. I didn't think about that. I didn't want to be like more than friends.
Speaker 4:Even though the idea was there, I didn't really want to break that boundary because what if I ruined that friendship going into that as time went on? You only get closer if you talk, like almost every day, if not every day. So yeah, I'm 15 years old and I'm talking to you at school. Summer comes around, I'm still talking to you outside of school. That communication, that's what really ruins you. When you're in communication One day, it's just all right. Let me confess how I feel, but before I say that, I think I put it in their friends' own because she did ask me A couple months prior. I was like, oh, what are we? And I was like, oh, I got scared. Yeah, my heart started racing. I went on the phone and was like, what are we? I was like friends, I didn't know what to say.
Speaker 1:We were just friends. Was that what you were feeling at the time? Were you thinking about this thing?
Speaker 4:No, you wasn't no, no, no. I was like I really like this girl, right, it was safe to say I was like infatuated. I was like let's use the L word I was in love. Okay, let's say I was in love. And then it was like I didn't know she felt the same way. That question struck me by surprise, so I was like it was going on.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what you wanted. I haven't finished the story. Go ahead.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so that happened and then we just moved on from there. That topic was never brought up again. Time went on and then let me confess how I feel. But this is I was scared of that sort of rejection, even though I knew she liked me. I was confused Like this never happened to me. I was never more than friends with a girl like every. So I was just like I just didn't know how to go about it and I was like what was also blocking that was oh, you're not supposed to have a boyfriend or girlfriend, and I did not want to enter that threshold and that box of having a boyfriend or girlfriend. I kind of went away the more I wanted to talk to her and then I eventually I ended up asking her yeah, and it was very emotional, I would say, I guess because she asked me why I didn't say anything before, like when she asked me. I was like I thought I was scared, I guess we're happy. And he did.
Speaker 1:So you guys are still together.
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 1:So what happened?
Speaker 4:Everything was going well. To be honest, From being honest, it was like anything I could ask for as 15, 16 years old. There's someone that could listen to you, someone that, like your best friend, you look for your best friend in your partner, Like you're, someone you're just like overly comfortable with. But then, down the line, I'm starting to realize, yo, is this the right way? I should be like going about things too. So we shared a lot of things in common, but one thing we didn't share was religion. Okay, cool, Same ethnicity, different religion. Me thinking about that, I was like all right, I can still marry this woman. It feels like it says that Muslim man can marry the woman from the Abrahamic religions Jewish, Muslim, Christian. So I was like that's the thought process I was having too At 15 years old. I was like, yeah, I'm going to marry this girl, I want to marry her.
Speaker 4:As time went on, I guess she realized what I wasn't doing was right. I didn't know this was against your dean. Why are you doing this? She had all these Muslim friends. She seen it. It was because of a tweet. She seen the tweet coming on.
Speaker 4:She said yo, this Muslim, a youth, should stop normalizing Zina, right? And she asked me what Zina was. You know, I told her and she was like how about everything else? I was like, of course, like we're not going to be looking that way, but it's having a boyfriend and girlfriend, Like those are things that lead up to that, so we're supposed to not even go anywhere. That leads towards that. She's like why are you doing this? I was like I didn't have an answer. I was like I love you, I want to be with you, but this isn't the right way. Because of that, things got to end. She broke up with me. So she'll go go focus on your dean. You got to do what you got to do. If anything happens in the future, something might happen. We might meet again. This shouldn't be the way we're going about things. Maybe in the future those things are now we could be friends again, but that's how things are.
Speaker 1:I understand what you're saying, because that person is valuable enough for you to be and to have them in your life. You don't want to lose that person, right? Because it's not just romantic feelings that you have with that person. Like you said, it grew so it's hard to just unplug from that kind of space. So what did that moment in your life teach you? What did you walk away from?
Speaker 4:My biggest takeaway from that was if you're not loyal to Allah, how do you expect another being let alone doesn't have to be a significant other. How do you expect them to be loyal to you? Meaning Allah only tells us what to do because he knows what's good for him. For example, if you drink, you're going to get drunk. If you get drunk, you might get hurt or something. You might hurt somebody else. You're not supposed to do it. It's haram for a reason. That's why there is law that God sent to us. That was my biggest takeaway. It was like if I'm going to go against Allah, eventually he's going to come back and bite me, not because we were arguing everything. I didn't think we would break up, but if we're here to break up with me. It was like that still hit me at the end of the day, because we still ended up not being together. It was like be loyal to Allah and Allah will reward you with me.
Speaker 2:It was interesting how she's the one that had to remind you of lies to you.
Speaker 1:And the thing is, I knew I wasn't doing it the right way, yeah, but it was like you were making justifications, you were saying like la-la-lo's, you were trying to make it right from what you've told us. I don't think you forgot, or I don't think you went out the way. I think you were trying to say okay, I have this right, I have the right to marry a non-Muslim person and then maybe, inshallah if that person converts or so on and so forth.
Speaker 1:then you're allowed to marry. So I think you were trying to go into the gray area, yeah.
Speaker 4:I was trying to bend the rules a little bit. I was trying to. My intentions were merged even from the get-go, even before I even confessed my feelings to it. I started to realize, yo, this could be someone I can marry, because it's like the characteristics, things of that nature, and it was like I never had ill intentions At the end of the day. I still was trying to bend the rules, like going to the gray area, like you said.
Speaker 1:I think Allah's recmet. I think that's what I understood anyway. I think it's Allah's recmet towards both of you guys Because, for her to be the reminder for you, imagine if this person wasn't just cool with it. You're like, oh, this is not cool with you, or this is not cool with your religion. This is going to get in between, or maybe not even it.
Speaker 1:It's going to get in between, but you might not be in the right space in your journey with Allah and your connection with Allah to be able to take on someone else and to be a teacher and a leader for someone else to be able to convert, for her to be like, okay, this is not the time for us. That's the recmet, Because a lot of people they go down the wrong route. And you know how they say Westerners? They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Right, they go down the wrong route with good intentions and then get somewhere they don't want to be.
Speaker 1:I want to switch a little bit to Mustafa and just ask you the same question I asked him. If this hypothetical woman existed, what does that person's characteristic look like?
Speaker 3:Honestly, those type of characteristics. There's two types of characteristics for me, so one I've got to be like the outside they have to be preferably. I like someone that's East African, that's Muslim, that's just as modest, it's like that. But I also like something that's what I'm, my personal character that I like. It's someone that can talk to me, come to me around, someone that's like open-minded, someone that's socially aware, someone that can like connect with me on a deeper level and I can communicate them very well and talk about anything it could be.
Speaker 3:To like religion, to be like what's happening now, to talk about like goals and intuitions in the future, dreams and the plan to even get to that route of success. You know. So, honestly, I value those types and I'm the type to. I like deep conversations and stuff. All my close homies and friends. I'm able to connect and have a great conversation. So that's something I like, those type of characteristics that I value in. And there was someone for me too, someone that I had almost talking to. I started off talking about. We were friends prior but we fell off after a while because we were friends like younger, like in middle school and stuff.
Speaker 3:And then basically we rekindled our friendship again in high school, right. So we started talking and getting to know each other and it was going well and everything. And then eventually, like after a few months of talking, we like started to realize we had feelings for each other. It got to a point where we were hanging out and eventually, like, we ended up dating and stuff. So we were dating, we was having, we were doing everything we could and everything that I described to you guys we had. She fit my characteristics, I fit hers, we were having all this great conversation and stuff, but dating someone that at a young age it grew differently. So we grew the part we had different ideologies, we grew around different environments, we started seeing things differently and then eventually that kind of like arguments about ideas and what you should do, what should this person do, and just ended up having problems Tonight.
Speaker 1:I asked you to just elaborate a little bit. What does it mean? Examples in what ways did you guys grow apart?
Speaker 3:I'd say one. Just I'm trying to think of a good example. One way would probably be like what the other person should do for the other person, like about being caring, and also I feel like it was also like there's a commitment. There's a commitment like Barry. One of us had a little commitment where I feel like it goes out of her head.
Speaker 1:What does that mean? Exactly?
Speaker 3:It was more of losing like a friend. You know, when you lose a friend it's like they're getting distant, so like that. And honestly, like when you're losing a friend like that, I feel like that's where the commitment kind of came in and I felt, oh, something's going wrong. But since you guys are in a relationship, it's not like something easy. You can just like fall off, because when you're a friend and you're losing this thing, you're like oh, it's cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just like you guys fall apart.
Speaker 3:There's no talking about your relationship. You have to end it.
Speaker 2:Would you say that like priority says change with the family? Yeah, exactly, and then life got in the middle, whether maybe either you're working or she's going to school, there's other stuff got in the middle like where you guys first started, exactly, oh, okay.
Speaker 3:And it wasn't even just on her, and it was on my end too, and I was super busy. I was going through a lot of personal things in my life. It just got to a point where we didn't have time for each other. We weren't like talking. It just got to a point where we were having arguments about all this type of stuff. So we ended up.
Speaker 2:The thing that has nothing to do with your relationship, but it's becoming a problem.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, okay. So then it finally got to a point where we should just end it at this point and maybe come back later on when the time is right, because the way it was seen is like how we discussed. It was like right person, wrong time. But that's how I've seen it. But at the end of the day, even if that was, if we were to speak again for the rest of her life, her name was right next to mine her father's next to hers it's about to happen, so all it could do is wait.
Speaker 3:We don't really know. We're very young at the end of the day yeah. So, whatever happens, we might meet someone new we might not yeah. We're just about to go with life and see how, where it takes us.
Speaker 2:What are some misconceptions that you guys heard about the opposite gender, though you said earlier in the bill that how your dad told you when you were in seventh grade stay away from girls because girls are a distraction. What else have you heard about girls Cause? I want to take a shift a little bit.
Speaker 1:I was just wondering if they could define what dating looks like first, and then they could go there Just define what dating looks like, or. Go with whichever one, yeah.
Speaker 4:What dating would look like at the age what I was dating? Oh, 15, 16,. Oh, okay, typically might be somebody. Maybe somebody that meet at school or surround in school areas. Talk to that person like every day, go on dates, go to the movies or something.
Speaker 2:Would you call that halal dating?
Speaker 4:Nah no.
Speaker 2:Is that?
Speaker 4:halal. Westernized dating, Westernized, yeah, very westernized. No Mahram around, it's you two alone. That's what dating look like and that's what the type of dating looks like.
Speaker 2:Is that normal within you guys age group?
Speaker 3:I feel it's something that's been put on us and something that we've been exposed to, especially living here, cause we see that kind of stuff in high school or we see that in movies and television and that's something we see a lot, and I guess that's how it was portrayed for what a relationship should look like. So I feel like that's why a lot of people are like what that route at a young age.
Speaker 2:Did your parents ever give you guys a what I?
Speaker 1:know, Except for don't do it. Don't do it, but did they?
Speaker 2:say about, I know, talk about what you need to do if you're like a girl, or even those conversations. Was that ever happened for you guys?
Speaker 4:Yeah, even when I was younger, my mom when I was like talk about it.
Speaker 2:So are you interested in a?
Speaker 4:girl, you're acting a little different. Do you like somebody? She noticed that I mean, I think that's just the mother's intuition and the mother's instinct. Yeah, no, mom, no, I'm not interested in anyone, cause I knew what I was. Going back to me, the way I was dating. It wasn't typically halal. It was like how am I supposed to be doing what I'm supposed to be doing? And I was like I'll keep that away from her, right, but then here and there I'll joke around. Today, yo, I might marry this person. I'll describe the girl. Oh, I might marry this little more girl Audi mentioned she's not got a question if she's a Muslim or not, cause that's all like she heard my mind says that, but just to see what she would say, I'll slowly, just gradually, to say something, because my mom would always ask me about questions like that. So you know, just let me know if you like like somebody. Like we can try to like work something out. I feel like that was her way of telling me. This is the right way. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:How often do you? I'm going to go back to that state when the youth made how often do you think your horrible mother or father? Anytime he said I'm speaking to an horrible person, they think they're not Muslim.
Speaker 4:My mind is like it's just a no brain area for them. I think I was joking around. My mom wouldn't take me seriously too, Cause I like to joke, so she's like every time I hear okay, Nabil, Okay. So, yeah, but then One day I said something about Christian that caught her attention. It's okay, I'm joking.
Speaker 2:She didn't believe you, she didn't believe me.
Speaker 4:But I feel like part of her believing just a little bit, because later down the line that ended she asked me what happened to that Christian girl. I was like I was, just I was just joking.
Speaker 2:You are not joking. No, you are not joking. What do we do? We just test the water and see what they say.
Speaker 1:What do you think her silence meant? Her knowing what you were doing? Or her knowing that she was a Christian girl, but not saying anything?
Speaker 4:Regardless of whether she was Christian or not. My mother didn't know I was dating, so I used something I kept away from her and my father's, something I kept away from them. Maybe her silence was Alright. This kid is growing up Right. He's in his adolescence. It's normal for a boy or girl to catch feelings and like somebody. Let's just see where he goes with this. Let's see, because she wants us to be open with this. She wants us to have that relationship with this Me and my other sisters. I feel like she's not going to nag me about a certain situation when I'm comfortable, when she knows that I'm ready and when I'm comfortable, she's all ears and there to listen.
Speaker 1:Mashallah, that's really beautiful. I think I'm taking notes from my son because I'm probably going to be the nagging mom once he messages, so I'm taking notes for myself. I want most of it to answer that you are dating.
Speaker 3:Honestly, I grew up in a different kind of way. My parents always said talking the other day, so they said that about it right away. It wasn't something that was brought up while growing up because, like I said, it's something that I didn't focus on until later on. And then, because it wasn't brought up, it's something we already know or what's set so we have to keep away from your prayer. So it's something that's hard to bring up to your prayers. It's just awkward and it's scary at the same time. It's just something that you've heard.
Speaker 1:If parents had these kind of conversations with their kids. First of all, at what age do you think they should start having these conversations and being like, hey, if you are interested in somebody, this is what you should be interested in, and not the code of conduct. And then, if so, what do you think would the ideal conversation would look like that would have helped you guys growing. First, when do you think would be ideal time? And then what would the ideal conversation?
Speaker 3:I feel like the ideal age probably be like 12 or 13. Cause I feel like that's around the age where everyone gets, they start going through puberty and stuff like that, and that's like when the hormones kick in, people get crushes and feelings and all that stuff. And honestly, and I feel like the conversation will end that handout as a parent and make them set that boundary rule Be like, if you do like someone, I'm here to listen and we can do it the right way, instead of just saying how wrong. Cause honestly, it's true, it's good to say that's how wrong, and then they should know it was right and wrong. And then they end, in order for them to get over the obstacle from that rule, saying it's how wrong, they have to hide it. So, being like the healthy hand and just being open about having that relationship with your kid that way, I feel like that would be a really good way.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I agree with Mustafa. Yeah, I'll say middle school, high school, let them know this. Okay, you mentioned Haram. Okay, they're going to know. It's not going to do anything for the kid, though, as you grew up right, look, how many cases do you see people like knowing something is wrong. They still end up doing it because people are naive, people like to try new things, people like to.
Speaker 2:I think they have time to repent. That's why they're like I'm y'all, I haven't been dying.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, that's a dangerous one. I know some people. It's a very bad mindset.
Speaker 4:I'll say the age of adolescence, because you can't hide this from your kid forever. This, eventually, when your kid starts to like like somebody, of course you want them to go about it the right way. So, building that sense of comfortability at that young age, regardless of whether the kid might tell you or not, because majority of the time we're at school. Of course there's stuff that are done at home too, but you're not at home most of the time. Your influence is everywhere else except in the home as much as it is. There's some sets of morals and principles that you follow, right, but then majority of the things that you follow, you see, you want to act like you want to do people. You hang around what you see online, especially social media too. All right, let me see this. All this looks nice. I want to go out and try this. You just want to build that sense of comfortability for your child to be open to you.
Speaker 1:So do you think hey son or hey daughter, stay away from this kind of situation? Stand a person, do this. Or if you are interested in somebody, talk to me, or let me be the mahammada and the date I'll be around. So you guys would that be helpful versus just waiting for you to come talk to them.
Speaker 2:I think with that I also have general statement as a therapist to talk about that. I think there's a different conversation to have with boys and girls with the question that you have. But I want to hear how, from a man point of view, how do you guys want, as a parent, to tackle that? Because that's a great question, because therapy happens.
Speaker 1:Would the conversation be better if it came from the husband or the mom?
Speaker 3:After the conversation might come better. When it comes with the dad, I feel more comfortable and honestly I think the way to go about it is probably more like jokingly Instead of coming so serious, because I'm like little hints.
Speaker 2:Oh, you must be liking somebody at school, you must have a friend at school. Yeah, like that, I do that with my nephew.
Speaker 3:Yeah, those kind of jokes, also what you were saying before either oh, you shouldn't do this, or a little bit of both, because it's not Balance it out. Yeah, balance it out. You shouldn't talk to people like that, but if the case does come, you end up liking us all. Just let me know.
Speaker 3:And we can talk about it like that. I don't know. Just try your best to be comfortable with the child that they are. And obviously not every child is the same. They think differently, they might not. The one might ease up to that way and the one might ease up to the other way. Where it's like jokingly, I guess you just got to maneuver. Yeah, test each side Personality, Personality exactly.
Speaker 1:So what I'm hearing you say is that first of all, just pick a strategy that fits your kid, because you know your kid better, and then also don't just stick with one strategy, like, sometimes go with the joking route but then also have the serious moments of, hey, this is what is expected and what's the reality of the situation, but once in a while, they get the light and try to do all that without being too strict, because obviously majority of the time the kids won't open up to their parents because they feel as like they're too strict or they're going to receive some kind of consequence or discipline.
Speaker 2:They're going to get in trouble. Exactly, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3:That's probably why they. It's just the comfortability that you got to figure out how to deal with.
Speaker 4:Yeah, nobody, yeah. So when bringing it up to the child, I feel it's good to hear a little bit of both sides. Fits a boy or a girl, I feel like a son could connect more with a father and a daughter could connect more with a mother, just for the simple fact that nine times out of 10, you probably went through the same thing, that they went through being their gender and, you know, being the same gender Female, female you might have the same experience, maybe different, maybe like a different situation, but experience may be generally the same.
Speaker 4:My father maybe liked a girl or something, so he probably might connect with me like, oh, you like a girl too. All right, let's talk about her, or something Like, from the mother side too, it's good to go both ways because, all right, your mother could probably tell you how a girl might think. You know what I mean. Your father could probably tell you how he thinks a girl might think, right, but he can't really tell you how a girl thinks. Talk to both, maybe experience wise, talk to like a daughter, probably talk to a mother, son probably talk to a father. I feel like parents should go at it together.
Speaker 4:You know what I mean, because at the end of the day, it's like teamwork too. He's not your son, he's both of your guys' son. He's not, You're both of your guys' daughters, so like. Maybe, sit down together as a parent and have those conversations. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's how it should be, but you have a different perspective with being around. You had a lot of sisters and cousins and females. What is your understanding for the opposite gender? What are the misunderstandings that you have about the opposite gender from the environment, both, or what are the clinical conversations as boys? You guys talk about girls and what to look for and what are some red flags or things like that.
Speaker 1:Or even in your friend group, right Like when you guys are sitting around and talking. What do you feel is the misconception that you notice most?
Speaker 4:Misconceptions about us.
Speaker 2:I did about women. What are the misconceptions you have about women in general? You hide or have them Because we all have biases about one another.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it would be easier if we asked them the misconceptions they feel like women have about them, because it's hard to know that what you know is a misconception or not, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that too I want to know. I want to know both, both Because they have it and we have it too.
Speaker 1:Your friends. What do you think your friends have misconceptions about? I feel like me being friends with guys. One misconception that I know that women have about guys is you guys don't have feelings.
Speaker 2:There's that misconception.
Speaker 1:One misconception guys have about girls, I feel, is you guys think that we take everything too seriously. Yeah, everything's, a heart, everything's a heart and we're not logical. I used to always have these debates with my guy friends and with my brothers and so on and so forth about, yeah, if you just broke it down to us and talked to us the way you talked to your buddies, then they would understand.
Speaker 3:For the misconceptions for women. I think that I probably had now, but I thought that they were very emotional.
Speaker 1:What is emotional to me.
Speaker 3:I think you said taking things to heart, but at the same time everyone's different and that's what I mean by learning. Everybody's not the same, but I guess one for guys is that I think that women have for guys they don't have feelings, they don't think deeply about things and they're like they don't think far ahead, they don't think like three steps ahead at the same time.
Speaker 3:And there are some guys that think like that, but at the same time, it's some guys that do so. Honestly, all these misconceptions it doesn't apply to the gender as a whole. That makes sense. It's just the types of individuals. So, to be honest, there is a lot of people that fit those in each gender. He grew up around like girls, so he doesn't have those stereotypes he has to understand.
Speaker 2:He has more exposure, Exactly more exposure.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm picking back on what you said too. A lot of guys think that girls just don't take things at face value. You would need a lot of explanation. For example, a guy might tell his guy friend, yo, I'm going to play basketball. Okay, all right, we're going to go play basketball. And then somehow it gets canceled so sorry, bro, I can't make it. Something happened, all right, cool, all right, so sorry. A guy tells his girl yo, I'm sorry, I had to stay, I'm sorry we can't make it to this movie. And she's like why are guys having that misconception of girls always questioning and always wanting to know? They just don't take it how it is. I don't know if I'm wording that very well.
Speaker 2:I think communication is where they choose might be at many points, what I'm getting from what you're saying is one ways that I've understand and learn too is that sometimes, as opposite genders, we speak two different languages. It's like when you put somebody who speak, or more, in somebody who speak French, how do you think those two people are going to communicate? Be direct, be clear, be concise, right, and so I think that's where, like a lot of misunderstanding, misconception, which develop more in any relationship, regardless of what relationship it is and I'm asking this because I feel like I've had this conversation with my friends and my husband even a lot.
Speaker 1:Do you think we're more similar and we feel more similar things than we do, different even in relationships, even when we are infatuated with somebody from far from whatever the case is? Do you think we experience the same things, we being like girls and guys, and we just communicated or express it differently, or are we really as different as we see?
Speaker 4:No, we're more similar than it seems. A girl might feel some type of way about a guy. She might talk about it a lot with her friends and it's all, yeah, I really like this guy. She's like talking about it, so she can talk about it. A guy, on the other hand, he might not talk about it as much, he might feel the same way. But just because he's not communicating it the same way, she doesn't mean that we're really that different.
Speaker 2:I think coming with that compassion of understanding one another and you think that would create better safe space and to be open to hearing one another and to be open minded and being curious, asking clarifying questions probably the best way to go about that.
Speaker 3:I was just going to say. When it comes to women and men and when it comes to relationships and dating, something they do but similar is heartbreak, love to feel like and so on, or love or something. That way, honestly, they might like each other or communicate in different ways. One person will be secret, they'll not talk about it as much as friends. The other one might do it a lot, but at the same time, they both feel the same thing.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 4:And I feel, knowing that, like said, being open minded, we could come to a conclusion and we could come to a common ground. Listen to how you communicate. I'm gonna tell you how I communicate. Let's see what the middle ground is for us. Once you guys have that common ground, maybe the way you guys communicate would be different.
Speaker 2:I also have a question about you both being in college right now, and when do you think is that time to have or I know a majority. A lot of college students do have a plan on getting married eventually and they have timeline that they have set for themselves maybe when I graduated. So how do you guys network? How do you guys meet people when you're in college? What does that look like?
Speaker 1:for you guys right now, and what does the timeframe look like?
Speaker 3:For getting married. When it comes to meeting people in college, honestly I just think it's just going in and doing yourself, just focusing on your own self, but at the same time, just building relationships, like being friends, making friends. That's the best route to go. Just keeping an eye for my timeframe, it's probably towards the end of college or whenever I feel like I'm stable in my life, like I'm financially stable. I'm ready to make that big commitment, because when I come to marriage, it's a lot of self, like you got to marry the girl and you got to marry her family and you got to marry the responsibility.
Speaker 3:The responsibility, all that stuff that comes with it.
Speaker 2:So what I'm hearing you say is that be open-minded, be curious, but just go with the flow and organically if it happens. But then you don't have a set planning to maybe graduate. Does that sound right, yeah?
Speaker 4:Social environment and college Me a lot of new people is because you're not typically with the same people that you grew up with. It's a whole different environment. You might go with the same people that you came up with, but at the same time there's a lot more events. You might decide to join more clubs. That's where you can meet more people. So it's very social. It's like you can't get away from it. You're always going to be interacting with one another, like when stuff is set. Go with the flow too. Timeline for marriage I feel like ready is different for everybody. You see some people getting married at 17. See some people getting married at 25.
Speaker 4:But I feel like the right time to get married, so to say, is you have to know about yourself. You have to really know yourself, meaning how can you love somebody else if you didn't love yourself yet? So doing simple things to bring them back to the Dean. One way of showing that I love myself is worshiping a lot and having that connection with God. Of course, there's other factors too. Financially, you're going to be able to provide as a man, of course, provide and protect. That all plays a role.
Speaker 2:If that's what, something that you wanted to be, what does she have to be for you in order for that person? Because what you're saying to be right now, you want to be steadfast in your religion first and you want it to be able to finish Lee in the right place where you feel like you're ready to take on that responsibility. But what are some criteria about her, like what are you looking for? What are you guys looking for? The question is open to both of you what are you going to hype?
Speaker 3:with, then I'd say the same thing when it comes to Dean and just kind of knowing yourself.
Speaker 4:And what am I looking for? Of course, I'd like to have someone Probably if we're talking Dean-wise same love as me, or maybe better, so I could probably learn from them, because marriage is not just a stable line. It's something that I was able to learn and grow from new experiences. You might learn something in your marriage about the person that you didn't know before, because I want someone that's open-minded to you. You want to have an open-minded person, someone you can have conversations with, someone you can relate to as well. You know what I mean. That's what I look for.
Speaker 1:I wanted to ask. In our last interview we asked what is the dating scene like right now in the youth? What the girl said is that the girl it's gotten more explicit now I'd say dating just got more into that Western tradition.
Speaker 3:It's pretty much like what you said Going through. It's like talking a lot and then going on dates a lot, and it did get physical. It is physical now. This is kind of today's society, Because it's more of people are just dating just today, into doing some like haram activity sometimes, so like that.
Speaker 1:But is that for Muslim brothers and sisters too? It's not just Lord, not talking about Adhan people, right? This is not in our community, it's just everyone.
Speaker 2:So we can call it Zino Full friends without not shaming it or anything. But, I struggle with that, but anyway, there is they crossing that boundary where we're not supposed to. Is that what I'm hearing you guys say?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I feel like at a point in time, it was very like something, something that I was like very kept if you were doing something, no one would know about it. Now it's like especially my age group 2023, right, the adolescents, people in the same age something that's like popular and it's not a shock.
Speaker 1:So the shame is gone.
Speaker 4:No, he showed. No, yeah, for I wouldn't say it's like that for everyone, but like when you hear something, it doesn't really like shock you anymore. What should be like, what should be the same?
Speaker 2:No, I think this is why we're having this conversation, because I feel like a lot of parents are living in such a delusional world and that they're not fully understanding on what's really happening, as far as what Bonnie was saying is that the younger kids elementary, even elementary, middle schools, high schools are doing the things that adults are doing as far as when it comes to relationships.
Speaker 1:And we can. Adults that are not married should not be doing it. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:So that's why I feel like, yes, we can put everything under the rug and not talk about it and just keep it quiet, but we have to talk about things that are difficult.
Speaker 1:And the reason we want to have these kind of interviews with the youth is because I worked in the school system for a long time. Even I don't have my finger on the pulse like you guys do. That's why it's better when parents hear it from you guys and also future parents hear it from you guys. In addition, I feel like most of the time and I took that very seriously in high school was people do things because they think other people are doing it too, but then other people are not doing it. So those people that pretend that they're doing it, they're not doing it, they're just putting up that front that they're doing it. And then you, because you're a follower, you end up getting caught.
Speaker 1:I can explain that by saying, for example, in my school there was a lot of fiends, there were a lot of drug zines and it was like starting to almost be like cool to smoke what is it called the e-cigs, and that's when they came out. And vaping Vaping yeah, the vapes that's when they came out was when I was in high school and everyone would carry them. And then I knew people that never swole them but that carried them around just because they thought it was like it would make them, I don't know, like a badass or something. And because certain people are insecure and they want to get with the cool crew, they would do it for real and get addicted for real when the other person's just posing with it. Does that make sense?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I guess my question is I'll bring it back to intimacy and Islam and stuff how much do you guys think Islam and our rules is in the forefront of the youth's mind when it comes to and I'm speaking specifically- obviously our youth and the youth's mind when they are interacting with the other gender.
Speaker 4:From what I've seen, islam is not a priority. If we're being honest, we shouldn't be even having those interactions in the first place, right? So that's like the first line that's already crossed, so everything else is just looked over to. Islam is not the main focus, which is, I wouldn't say, that's for it, that is for everybody too. But what is starting to like really happen is-.
Speaker 3:It's in the back of their heads.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's not very, it's not. People are not thinking about it. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:They just go with the flow, but not in the way that they should, I feel, even if they aren't thinking about it at the moment, after they do what they did, then they think about it like what I did, they feel great or something like that. But obviously at the moment I think that it's more of a moment, I think you just like-.
Speaker 2:Today.
Speaker 3:Just today, yeah, and then later, after I was just gonna say about back to what you say, they probably, some people probably think that I could repeat after that line Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:How do you think we can change that? What would be a good thing in our community that we could do? Like a would that would, it's like a curve, that, yeah better. The adults could do, the youth could do, whichever one is.
Speaker 4:The sad truth is, as time goes on, more and more the stuff becomes exposed to our things, for example, rate.
Speaker 2:But how do we prepare our youth for those things Like-. So that they don't get caught up Because right now starting earlier, like I, was saying earlier, the vaping is normal in elementary right now. Now even opiate is even normal in middle schools. And forget about sexual experiences and other taboo things that we're all afraid of?
Speaker 1:Do you think having systems like maybe having like in muskjub shifts talking about it more, or parents talking about it more, or even having programs after school like what do you think this front of mind is into this thing? Blah, blah, blah. He's doing this, he's doing that. If he had this or if he had this person, or whatever that case is. If it's too difficult, let's just-.
Speaker 4:Nah, looking at it is what hasn't been done. That's what I'm looking at. Right, there's haalakas going on all the time, but like-.
Speaker 1:You have to be in the muskjub.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you have to be in the muskjub, right, and there's all right. It still might be targeting the youth, but it still might be targeting the kids Our age don't have that love for the muskjub as much. They'd rather go. A movie comes out, right, there's haalakas on Friday. They'd rather go to that new movie that comes out. And even on social media too, A lot of the time it reminds us too, but it's something to scroll past and it's not at all. So I don't know what Do you?
Speaker 1:think events like we did and I'm not doing a plug for us, but do you think events like we did would have any impact or help?
Speaker 4:I would say it would have an impact. Think about a lot of people that knew about the event, for example. Then come, they just see it. I feel like they don't have that sense of-.
Speaker 2:I think the innate motivation is gone.
Speaker 4:Yeah like the motivation for it?
Speaker 3:I really don't know. Honestly. I think there's a lot of things that everyone has already tried and for what it looks like, it's not working as much, but I think I know what to do when it comes to your own individual child as a parent, I think-.
Speaker 1:What would that look like?
Speaker 3:Yeah, actually a better way to look at it is probably making them aware of, just letting them know at a very young age but even they can't see this, so they don't go in blind. You know, when they come up with this new stuff like, oh, my mom, and well then, you're talking about this stuff. So, they have that understanding the bag of the hail. This is the thing.
Speaker 3:Nothing shocking yeah nothing shocking my mom and my dad. They're talking about this, so they have the idea. And one also thing that I think is a really big influence is their friends' environment they're in Because it doesn't matter if they're a good kid or a bad kid. If you're a good kid and you go into a bad school system, you're going to become bad eventually, even especially the fact that you're a kid because kids are trying new things and they don't want to feel left out and they don't want to feel like the lame kid. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So Because you brought up the school system, I wanted to ask one more question and have you can go ahead and this could lead to our closer, I promise. Do you think that you guys probably never went to Islamic schools or anything? But do you think maybe if our youth started off in Islamic schools, like Islamic elementary schools, middle school, islamic high school, like Al-Amalah, whatever, with that being more good because they're immersed in that kind of environment or is being a public school better? I feel like from an outsider looking in, I would think it would be easy, like, oh you know, just because they're in two schools, they're gonna be automatically more sheltered from certain things than if they were in public school. What would you guys think?
Speaker 3:The thing about that is that if you were sheltered from all the bad things and you get into that environment because eventually you're gonna get exposed to that environment, then it's gonna. It's like you're gonna wanna try it based off curiosity, because you're human.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking more about what you said, of letting them know right away of, hey, this is what we do, this is what we don't do.
Speaker 4:I feel like growing up, say, like kid goes to the Simon School, their whole school career it's gonna be. I feel like they'll have a lot of benefits, but maybe like slide down sides because whoa, how would they interact like outside of that environment? It's like once they're put into that environment I know K to 12, they grow up with Simon School. They knew like what, everything that wasn't supposed to be done, they didn't see it. But then once they're out in the real world and once you become an adult, what do you do then? But then I feel like if that's the case, growing up in that environment, let it be known what's going on because, you can hide the truth from the former prison.
Speaker 4:They're from the kid from prison for a long time. They eventually get to find out regardless. And it's not even just school too. Social media plays a big factor. You know what I mean. Kids are hopping on like social media from like the age of nine years old. They see everything Like the internet is a very scary place things that you're not supposed to in this. I feel like if that's known, then you can move off and then you can go from there.
Speaker 3:Could I say one more thing too? Like the way the bill is explained it, I also see this when there's a kid that has strict parents. For a long time they were never able to go out, or they're always. They're always gotta be home. Six or seven, they never had the opportunity to hang with friends and I've seen this from the moment they get that freedom, then they go crazy. They just they don't go home straight in here, they just doing everything. They just trying to experience all that stuff they couldn't experience when they were pipped up in the house or something they couldn't do anything. It's good to have a little type of exposure, balanced, not to a point where, like that exposure and that vibe will consume you, but to more of that exposure will give you awareness.
Speaker 1:I like that. There's a separation between you and the exposure, but you know that it exists so you're not shocked by it later on or tempted by it later on. Exactly I like that.
Speaker 2:Okay, what would be advice would you like to hear if you are a youth in middle school today?
Speaker 4:One thing would be don't fall into peer pressure, because even though I talked about me falling into that Haraon relationship, I did it because I was influenced by the things around me, and peer pressure is not just your friend telling you to do something, but peer pressure is what you see when you're walking around and what you look at from online and what could be talked about but not executed. So peer pressure is number one. That's some advice I'd like to do.
Speaker 2:I actually find that really interesting. I'm glad that you said that, because peer pressure doesn't have to be a verbal conversation that you had with people or people telling you to do something. Peer pressure can be as things that you consume with your eyes, because in our religion, zina happens five ways. All your five senses include in Zina. What you watch, what you hear, what you talk about are all part of that.
Speaker 2:So when you consume something that is itself Eventually, at the beginning you resist it. You're like that's how I'm known for me, I'm not gonna do that, but the more you see it, the more attraction that it gets. I always said this maybe we can add this too is if you wanna learn the best achlak, learn achlak of shaytan, because he's so patient, very concise. When it works on us as a human being, in our heart and condition and desirability, he works very well and that is the work of it. The peer pressure itself is like you consume something you watch in social media, you watch in TVs, you talk about it with your friend group, you see it in the hallway of school.
Speaker 4:And if you're not partaking or participating in such activity, you're gonna look like the odd person, you're gonna look like the odd one out, you're gonna look like the odd boss. So it's just don't fall into peer pressure, and in doing so, just remember a lot in most of us.
Speaker 1:I wanna just add one more thing, because I think what this peer pressure aspect it adds on to what Mustafa said about also picking your friends. But when I was a kid, my mom used to tell me show me your five friends, show me who your friends are and I'll tell you exactly who you are Meaning the people that you surround yourself with, the people that you have most contact with, because at that time social media wasn't a thing right. So your closest friends, or those five people that you hang out with the most contact with, the most conversations with, are the people that you end up emulating. But now you have to expand that. Those five friends is that your phone, the apps on your phone, your TV, of course your friends too, the schools that you go to and the kind of people that you are around.
Speaker 1:Your neighborhood is also one of your five friends, because if you're walking in your neighborhood and everybody's hooked up, you're gonna look like the crazy person. How come that person doesn't have someone? It's so crazy to me too, like how, even in our own faith, the Muslim kids are saying how come you don't have someone? You know what I mean. It's not the other people saying that. Or oh, that person. Oh, why don't you talk to that person? We're being our own shaitans. I think it's really interesting how both of those things marry into one another the peer pressure of your idea and then who you're friends with, what you're sort of, the environment that you talked about. That's all very interesting.
Speaker 2:I just have last one question. What would be one advice would you give the youths middle schools, high schools and parents, or two, three, advice who's?
Speaker 4:I could start. So for the youths what's cool now, don't fall into that, because nine times out of ten is not good for you and I'm glad that back in high school too, I was in around the car doing drugs and things like that Because at the end of the day, it's not good for you, for you and your E-man too. You might see that couple in the hallway walking together. Right, was that really the way to go about things? You might look nice, you might want to try it, or you might want to go to this party or something, and if you don't go, kids might look at you like lame oh, you didn't go to the party, you're weird lame. Don't let that consume you.
Speaker 4:Try to stay as steadfast as possible, because high school is a very it's a crazy test. You know what I mean? It's like a lot of fit-in on high school and things of that nature. Just try to stay steadfast, make dore, because if anyone else in this world doesn't have you, allah got you at the end of the day. So that's my advice. And for parents try to be more open with your kids and I feel like the next generation coming up we won't really have a problem with that as much as because we're having conversations like these. You know what I mean Letting people know yeah kids don't follow the trends.
Speaker 4:Parents try to be more open.
Speaker 3:So for my, advice for the youth just probably, just watch who you hang around and watch who you look up to and look at where you are and how it might lead you to where you will be in the future, because a lot of things, a lot of the things that the youth look at is the route they're going, because whatever might be cool if they like being a bad boy or bad girl, looking at what happens to those people who are bad boys, bad girls, where are they right now?
Speaker 3:Just look at where they end up to be. Just try to follow, look up to people who end up being successful in your life, and just not just being successful in general. You know, that's just my advice for the youth and for the parents. Sort of the same thing. Just be open with your kids and also watch your kids' environments. I feel like people don't really see how big of a significant factor of environment is playing a role in your kids. Build a great relationship with your kids, because the more they feel comfortable, the more it's easier to manage them from the inside out instead of trying to figure out what they're doing from the outside.
Speaker 1:I couldn't have said that better. That is so powerful. Try to manage your kids from the inside out instead of trying to do it from the outside in.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's awesome, absolutely, Guys. Thank you so much for coming and thank you for taking the time and explaining to us your journey, and we really love to follow listeners to continue to listen to us and if they have any questions and feedbacks and just all let us know. But this is a great difficult conversation, yeah.
Speaker 1:Salam Aleykum Aleykum, salam, aleykum Aleykum Aleykum Salam.