Difficult Conversations
Difficult Conversations
Young Women's Perspective: Our Thoughts
Tune in as we give our insights on our interview with three young women (Iman, Darartu, and Layla) and their perspective on love and marriage.
In the quest for love and companionship, understanding each other's expectations is paramount. Do men and women really want different things? We dissect the disconnect between what men and women expect from each other, leading to some mind-boggling revelations. We also explore the evolution of gender roles and expectations in relationships, with Gen Z advocating for a balanced equation. Tune in to learn about the importance of open and honest communication, the art of compromise, and how to bridge the gap between expectations and reality.
Lastly, we delve into the all-important first step - dating. We discuss the criticality of asking the right questions to determine if your potential partner is marriage material. We emphasize understanding your own needs and wants before emotionally investing in a relationship. Also, we dissect the traditional roles of men and women in relationships and the importance of equipping men with the right tools to sustain a successful relationship. This enlightening conversation is a must-listen for anyone navigating the treacherous waters of modern relationships. So buckle up and get ready for some hard-hitting, thought-provoking insights on love and marriage in today's world!
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As-salamu alaikum, welcome to difficult conversations where we tackle taboo topics in a safe space through empowerment and education.
Speaker 2:This episode is a commentary on an episode that we did previously. Before listening to this episode, so that you are able to understand all of the context that we are speaking about, please listen to the previous episodes.
Speaker 3:The conversation is based on the interviews that we have done with the young girls high school students and it was very informative a little bit of understanding of their experiences about the process of marriage and then just kind of adding our own perspective to what we got out of that conversation.
Speaker 1:It's very open-minded and very interesting conversations, what I gathered from our interviews, going off the sisters' interviews they're kind of hopeless in the process. They feel like they're not either going to find their match or there's not a lot of people out there that are worthy and they're not willing to put up with BS, which is a good thing. And then the other thing I kind of saw is that if it's not basically benefiting me in any way, I'm not going to entertain it. And I think that's where the compromise comes in. Like, fundamentally, what are we trying to say? What is the appeal of marriage nowadays to people?
Speaker 3:Do you think that this generation Gen Z specifically, that's who we're talking about, because those are the people that we interviewed and do you think that their understanding of the institution, the marriage, not just similar to the millennium generation, that which we were raised around, where we were taught to be a wife and how to be a mother that was the ultimate thing that we're going to do step up after college? That's the next thing that we're supposed to do here now. There is so much of various information that's out there, not coming from their own household, but from external noises as coming up saying you don't have to do this, you don't have to do that, and because of that it's subconsciously kind of implanted them. And when it comes to them having conversations, they're not even. I mean, they are high school at the end of the day, so they don't. I don't think they have that much of insight of what they want yet. That was my understanding, but I think they've seen a lot already within their group youth group right, their peers?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I kind of want to go back to that. Do they not know what they want? Because I like, for example, that Arte had mentioned like she was exposed to dating and talking to guys at a very young age, like elementary school. Do they not know what they want? Or are they just pushing back and saying, yes, our parents, you know, are pushing this and millenials we've gone through that of, like striving for marriage or whatever. How much of that is pushing back on like cultural norms? Or just saying, okay, you know what? I need to just discover myself first.
Speaker 3:So I think there's a couple of things there. I don't think they are talking to people and the purpose of getting married For them it's just like time pass. You know, I'm in the middle school, boy like me, and it's normal for me to have a boyfriend, because somebody else that I know have a boyfriend. There's chatter, I have an understanding. So I want to be accepted to this group of peers that I have and the concern that you brought is that are they pushing back from the norm that they were raised around?
Speaker 3:I think that is going to be a lot more discovered in college, I would say, right now, in their stages of generation, where they're at, that's not the conversation, that's not even something that is in their understanding of where they can decide on like, oh, I'm going to be talking to this eighth grader or 11th grader, eventually, after high school, we're going to get married. It's not. That is the fact that, oh, I know my other friend who I'm close to is talking to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like I feel awkward just walking around school, not having the same experience, because everybody around me is shaming me, guilty me, and that I don't talk to anyone. And I think, yes, there is a concern that that conversation is not happening within their group of people, and I think they should be so one thing I understood while listening to them to the ladies speak and then also listening to the boys speak is the ladies.
Speaker 2:I feel like there is a sense of independence. I was actually very shocked, even from my own sister. I didn't expect I don't want to call it toxic independence, but very unhealthy level of independence that I noticed because it felt like I can do it all on my own. I don't need a man. I don't need a man. I can do it all on my own. And I think that, as an independent person and as a person that has been surrounded by so many independent, strong women, one of the components of being strong and being independent is knowing that when you can let go and release and when you can be like, okay, this I can do, I know I can do that too, but I'm willing to release that and I think that has not been taught to them. That's one thing I noticed.
Speaker 2:Even with the exposures that they talked about. They talked about either. It was very like we had one of the girls, which was Leila, who spoke about her very independent mom, you know that did everything herself. We also talked about what Imu, who was surrounded with a lot of women in her life that she considered very independent, but she saw their relationship more as a partnership. So it was either like to the extreme end, either it was partnership, like 50-50, or it was like 100-0. And I felt like maybe they weren't exposed to a lot of balance and having to be independent, or being independent and being strong but not needing to be so strong all the time, seeing the male figures in their life contribute.
Speaker 1:And I think this is the conversation that needs to be had. What is that balance and the institution that is marriage? Today, I feel like it's getting attacked and all around us, it's almost like you don't need to be married because everything else is available to you outside of marriage. There needs to be a pushback and saying there can be a balance that can be struck. But even me personally, I don't know where to go to be like, hey look, this is an example.
Speaker 2:I think it's also the fact that previous generations have failed this generation severely, because, from even the girls experience, what they taught them how to be prepared for marriage is things that would make someone rebellious, make someone dislike and distrust marriage. They're like, oh, you have to learn how to cook and clean for your husband, yeah, how is that appealing? What makes marriage appealing? If she's seeing like, oh, I'm going to have to do this thing for someone else, versus like the tenderness of marriage, the purpose of marriage, the power of marriage, the influence of marriage I think there's not a lot of emphasis that has that is done in those aspects, like that's actually discussed in the homes, why it's important. This is why our dean says it's so important.
Speaker 1:I mean just discussed, like shown the affection. And going back to one of the guys that we interviewed, you know he said he wished he saw more emotion in the family. He wished that his parents showed emotion around and stuff like that, so that he himself as a guy can know how to express it and know how to receive it as well.
Speaker 3:I mean, I have two things to say about this thing. One is that the girls been watching, they're taking notes and their notes about other people's marriages has not been positive and that's the biggest aspect of it. And the second part of that is that I think sometimes some uncomfortable, difficult challenges that come out of society, it can be a positive thing. It can be changing the perspective from the way we used to know what are the newer ways that we can do this differently. How can we have this balance of marriage that is not constantly depending on providing our own full energy from the women's side for one person? How can that person can meet you halfway too Contribute to more the way that you guys are running your household, for example. Case in point YouTube your marriages right.
Speaker 3:Those are the examples that you are when you're asking where can they find balance? Look at your marriage, right. How are you guys are able to figure it out, the partnership, the romanticization as well, and being able to kind of walk through this institution. Whether it's difficult I'm not saying it's easy, but you guys are aware of it. Right, aware of how to make this process work for yourself is by having those conversations, those difficult conversations. So it's challenging a new way of doing it, because there's a lot of nuance that these young girls are bringing to the table. That for me, like it captured my curiosity is because I would never be able to say if enough to think like the way they do, so courageous, so brave, to just say it outwardly, right. For me it's like don't say that, you can't say that in public, right, you may feel it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's the mark of our generation, right, exactly.
Speaker 3:So what I'm trying to get out of from their conversation is their ability to notice. I know something that I've been watching from my parents and the people around me that didn't work and I don't want to do that anymore. I don't want to be participating to that type of lifestyle. I want something different. But how do I bring in a different way that works for me and my spouse? I don't think, from what I'm understanding, it's not that they're hesitating from the idea of marriage. It's just that they have a different perspective than we do.
Speaker 2:Yes, also, they're very deterred. I feel like they're deterred, like I said, because of the things that they have learned or have been taught and they've been exposed to about marriage is not appealing. Observing something is not enough, because when you, for example, you can look at parents that are like on, say, like an older generation than us, that consider their marriage very happy, they're considered their marriage very satisfying, do they no? I'm saying there are people that consider their marriage very satisfying and very happy and they feel content in that space.
Speaker 3:I feel like Hanside is 2020, because once you come out of a difficult situation and then you guys are in a nice place, you can talk about how great things are versus when you're in it.
Speaker 2:No, no, you're, in general, partners in our community that consider that their partnership is good. Alhamdulillah, I'm content in this partnership. They're happy, they love their partner there, whatever, whatever. But then when you look from our generation in, you see that like, oh, the wife is only cooking, the husband is sitting in the kitchen and saying, where's my Shahi, you know? But the wife, you see her she doesn't feel like it's a labor of love, that's her active service, that's her way of loving her man, because that's how she knows how to love her man. Because older generations I don't know if they don't feel like they want to do those things or that's not what they're taught, but they don't really express their love like physically or with words of affirmation and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:And I think those things are just so new. It's new.
Speaker 2:And so I feel like when we look at that, we feel like, oh, that's horrible, like that's deterring, that's you know what I mean. Like I don't want to live like that. I don't want to be the one that's giving my husband, Shahi, and him complaining about the sugar in it. You know what I mean. But for her it's beautiful, because for her it's like giving him sugar and like in her tea that's her Sadaqah. And so I guess, in a way that if those couple explained their dynamic to their kids, you know what I mean, not like sitting there and being like, oh, this is why I do it, but like I love the way we communicate. I, you know what I'm saying, or whatever the case is, whatever you feel like this dynamic is is not reality. I am satisfied in this space, I am comfortable in this space. Then the kids will understand that there's more than one way of loving someone. There's generational differences between marriages and one generation is not necessarily more right than the other. You know what I mean. Well, I feel like that's one of the things that's missing. This discussion, and the lack of this open conversation has led to kids being deterred from marriage Another thing that I've noticed lately and I've listened to a lot of different podcasts with you know, very independent women and very toxic men is this idea of why do I need him?
Speaker 2:Though I make the money, I, I can do this, I can do that, I don't need him. And then the guy is like why do I need you? You don't make as much money as I do. You're not as pretty as I want you to be. I can go out and get like 10 times more of a fly girl than you with a better body, blah, blah, blah. So there's this competition. So nobody knows why this unity needs to happen. It's very materialistic.
Speaker 2:Their view of marriage is very it's exchange of like goods. It's transactional, it's transactional yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so in society the loud people are the one that counted to speak for the majority people, and I think the people that are loud are very small percentage of people. But they look like they look like the majority yeah Right, but the majority of people? That's not what they're thinking. They just want a partner who is able to emotionally be available and emotionally safe, a partner who can provide in the way it needs to be provided.
Speaker 3:I was a client of my recently said that I cannot forget. She said that I work really hard in life for my happiness and, regardless of what I do, nothing seems to be satisfying in my relationship. Say that again. She said I want to work really hard for my happiness, regardless of what I do, there's no appreciation and validation in my relationship.
Speaker 1:What did you take away from that? Yeah?
Speaker 3:It was when she does something regardless, does not directly focus on the person which is her partner and that person feels makes it feel bad about it.
Speaker 2:They actively discourage her search or her quest to find her happiness versus like not being nonchalant about it.
Speaker 3:The happiness can be just working out, can be spending time with the kids, not giving a time for them. That happiness can include just she has much more other support system that she has. Maybe she has a lot of engagement, a lot of activities Whatever fill her cups. She's doing those things, but then that is being guilted and being discouraged at home by the partner. So if you are raising that household and you constantly hear that that's what I'm trying to get at If you hear that, if you hear your dad talking to your mom like that, how do you see marriage when you are outside of it?
Speaker 3:It's your time to look for it, even though she's doing what she needs to do by cooking and cleaning, taking care of the kids, wrapping the kids up, picking them up, going to work full time, even time and time to work out, to look good, doing all the things she does. This is one of those things that's filling her cup and also doing the things that she needs to do, responsive with you once, but then she's constantly like you're doing too much. So those things can have discourage for the girls in relationship. When we're talking about going back to the high school conversation, is that one of the things that, like Bonnie said, just not by watching is not enough, but sometimes that is powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think one of the girls. She said I'm not looking for marriage and that's not my end goal. I'm going to school. That is my end goal. That's what I want to do. I don't know. I'm a little uncomfortable about that because how I was raised is that that's what you do. You get married, you produce the next generation.
Speaker 3:I took differently from that. Ashley, what she said is much more liberating to me. Oh, is that okay? Yeah, because from her comment she liberates herself from the attachment to her end goal in life to get married. Her success is attached to marriage and sometimes those are the things that I'm realizing as a person, that the things that Allah is in control. You're not in control for that success. That should not be your end goal. If you looked at marriage as some sort of milestones in your life, then you just kind of take the pressure out of yourself and you let it be. I think from the girls that we talked to that day, I feel like she would be the one to first to get married because she put that mindset for herself. She's not attached to the result. She's not attached to the result, but then she knows, if she meets somebody nice, she might not be kind of closing the opportunity, but she's not going to be focusing on marriage.
Speaker 1:But from the other stuff she said to, I felt like she was almost resisting. I don't know if you guys got that from her.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, no, I think it's valid, though it's valid. It's valid, I think, for I don't want to speak for her, but for her marriage is not an end goal at all. It happens, it happens, it doesn't, but it's not something that, for example, a juxtaposition of me and her is like. For me, my success story included marriage. It doesn't matter if I was a billionaire. If I was a billionaire and single, I don't think I would feel successful. And if I was married and I didn't have a career, I wouldn't feel successful. So, like, my success story in my head included both. I wanted to be a strong, independent, career-oriented woman, but then at that same time I wanted to have a family and I wanted to have the white picket fence and so on and so forth. So for her, she will be completely fine and completely content if she is not married and if she is like just career-oriented. Does that make sense? But I think also it comes from the idea that, like the third generation.
Speaker 2:I can do it all by myself. Right, I can do it all by myself. What is the other person going to bring into my table?
Speaker 3:I will be changed when she meets that person? Definitely, I think that would be challenged because in my understanding professionally and then personally, I think a lot of times when people are called and are very independent and kind of hold on to that, it's a defend mechanism, it's serving a purpose, it's protecting them from the ability to be vulnerable, to kind of put down those walls, to seek out support from other people. And letting people in. And doing that takes a lot of work and being able to like, hey, I need you to do this, this, this for me, instead of me asking a person why can't I just do it by myself? I can do it myself, I'm able to do this, I can take care of myself fully. And it's also more like a reliability and distrust to the other people, Not just in a relationship, it's just mainly like am I able to fully let go of me, to let somebody else take care of me? That way, that's a lot of fear for a lot of people, I would say.
Speaker 2:And I think one thing I noticed from the girls conversation is the list that they have. It's very subjective and it's not based on thought out not necessarily thought out, but it's not based on realistic expectation of your future significant other. So when we asked the question of what would make someone special for you to be interested in that person, the things that they were talking about was respect and empathy, nice person, nice person, and so on and so forth. Those are all great and those are all realistic expectations, but I think maybe it's also I might be a little jaded in the idea that because I was like my list was very, very concrete. I was like I wanted him to be like this and I think the reality of like, okay, what do I care about? Is it money or is it about his ambition and his desire to like be able to take care of his family? Is he family oriented? That kind of realistic thinking like when I am a wife, what do I need?
Speaker 1:but I think that's the thing I realized from our conversation is that I don't even think they're looking to that as like saying, okay, I'm trying to get married, let me be serious about it and say, okay, this is what I need and actually list it out. I don't think they're. You know why. That is for it.
Speaker 2:I think because the people that they see getting married because there's a lot of young people getting married right now they get married because they love each other. I'm generalizing, I apologize, I don't want to piss off anybody, but they get married because they love each other and the other person's cute and they've known each other for a while. And then I've seen and I've heard of a lot of marriages that crumbled under two years because they start living together.
Speaker 2:Like I'm gonna tell you guys a story, that's. I'm gonna tell you guys a quick story of this. They got married and the decision was that before they got married, the guy promised her family that she's going to focus on school, she's not going to work, she's on her last year of college, and then the guys also in his last year of school. They're in the same year, okay, and so he's supposed to work and support. But he was okay with that, no problem. So when he would come home, the house would be a mess. There is no food, the Raj is so tired. And then he would be like hey, can you make me some food? Or like he can you and she's like studying, and. And she would say and this is real, names attached and so on and so forth. And she would say something like this is not like the 50s, you can make your own food. Or like I'm not your maid and I'm like I understand you don't have to do those things. It's not the 50s, but it's part of compromising, right? Like he's going out, he's the same year as you, he has the same stress as you and he's going out and going to school taking the same credits as you are, and then he's working and then he's supporting the family. Would it kill you to like just make the house a little tiny, don't have to wash it, just shove it under the couch and then basically, you cook for yourself, you cook for yourself. Why don't you cook for him too and save some? That's just the Rahmat, that's just charity. It's not guy versus girl. Girls belong in the kitchen. It's that like little dynamic and that not being communicated.
Speaker 2:They never felt the need to have this communication or another conversation was the wife was working, she's going to school, husband's working, he's going to school, and the wife wanted to hire an Annie for their kids and any meeting with the person that's gonna clean the house and cook for them and live in any and they could afford it. It's not, but they could afford it. But he was so against it because it's like my mom did everything that like she was dying, when they both are achievers and they're both contributing to the house equally. He didn't want to get an extra help because that's not how his mom did it. She was able to do all of those things, so you should be able to do all of this things. There's so many stories of these things where the expectations are not aligned, they don't have a real conversation.
Speaker 2:But when you're talking to a man, instead of like, when you're in that fun phase and you're like, oh, we're gonna have a nice Allah, you know, I love you, love me, sit down and have a conversation about how much money is too much, you know, like, how much money? Or do we want to spend on a mortgage? What kind of house are you satisfied with? You know, are you someone that like it's very showy and like that wants to big house outside of the money that you can afford? Are you someone that wants nannies? Are you someone that wants to go on vacation?
Speaker 3:and I want to live in an apartment. I have a client that is like in the midst of this and I'm really scared how to bring it off to this person, because they're getting married and they got engaged and they're already having so many red flags are running all over the places. The only main focus is getting married, not to kind of figure it out. The biggest one I've noticed is a lot of people is that conflict resolutions and like how does he argue? How do you argue and how does he handle conflict? Does he walk away and ignore you for about a week and what? Are you gonna be the one talking to him and trying to be initiating all the conversation, all the things that you brought it up. It's valid point and I feel like what's missing.
Speaker 3:I wanted to ask is like how do you bring it up to young people on having premital counseling before marriage? Sit down with a therapist for 10 session, 5 session, whatever. The therapist will ask you this questions how do you argue when you're mad? What do you do? Do you stay in the same room or do you stop talking to each other? Do you respond to the phone call? Do you tell them I'm gonna call you back when I I'm gonna process what you say and also, who's gonna take care of financially? How do we manage money when it comes to children? How do you want to raise it? Do you want homeschooling? Stay home, take care financially, discipline yeah, even this is exactly this. You are like. All of this conversation is like somebody else is asking. All you have to do is talk to each other.
Speaker 2:I think also, people need to understand that if you answer these questions separately than the other person, it doesn't mean you guys are doomed, because I think that's one of the biggest fears you adjust and compromise that you adjust to compromise at least.
Speaker 2:You know, yes, and you're like, okay, we talked about it, I know this is how you normally move. I know you know this is how I normally. But let's move like this together exactly. And I think that's the biggest reason that I've heard a lot of people talk about their fear of premital marital counseling is that they feel like they're gonna point to the problem. They are not meant to be together. They're so different that they're not gonna. They're not meant to be together.
Speaker 3:It's not you together, like you said. It's meant to make understand there's no this or that, there's and this and that yeah, and you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:It's much more. And then that because I sometimes congestions and conversation makes people think black and white, but mainly it just makes you feel like you know what. This is how I think. What do you think? It's more like understanding what your perspective, how you are raised, where you're thinking process coming from. So, okay, if you think this way, what are the best way that we can do that works for both of us?
Speaker 1:so because they're not doing like all these counseling and it's leading to all the issues that you're talking about, and you're talking about the heavy. I want to kind of shift the focus because I one of the quotes that really stood out to me is that Leila she said I feel like a lot of girls are going through this awakening of just realizing that a lot of these men are not what they seem and it's not worth it. It's worth the weight focusing on yourself and bettering yourself as much as you can. Then he man says I rather wait 40 years and meet someone that I truly love and marry them at 40 and 50 or 60. Then marry somebody right away because it's completing half my dinner, whatever task. What do you guys think about that?
Speaker 2:I think that's awesome. But what does waiting mean? I think that's the thing, and I think what does working on yourself mean?
Speaker 1:because so do the first part, the first part, where they're saying we're realizing that men are not worth it period full stop.
Speaker 2:I think that's the issue. I want to add a little bit to that. Before that I was thinking about.
Speaker 2:I think there's a big disconnect between what men want, mm-hmm, what men are looking for in a girl, how men communicate our boys, and what women expect and what women think that they want. And if you listen to the two same age group Kids you can tell they're like they don't talk to each other at all. The girls feel like the guys only want sex. I'm not saying that boys don't want sex. I'm just saying that from our conversations with them and my personal experience with having guy best friends is that men are just as vulnerable and men want to be loved just as much as women. The only thing is they're been taught to be macho and they've been taught to not show and they've been taught to like move shadily than women, right? So I think that's the disconnect. The idea of just individualizing the experience that you have with that one specific gender, man, instead of using that experience and generalizing the whole people is one thing girls need to stop to do. I don't think guys do that a lot. Girls do that a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, just because you have that experience, you can just say okay, all guys from here on out are trash and scrutinizing every little thing that he does, that he's not doing, and the whole communication thing, I feel like, is really really big, because even now my big age and my marriage he's at my big age I'm still expecting my husband to read my mind.
Speaker 3:Yeah because that was really big deal. You said the girls has expectations. That was not clearly communicate and men are not communicating at all of what they want and their need, and does that sound like what you guys hadn't noticed?
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. And I think this generation now is vocalizing what I feel like our generation have felt, but kind of pushed through it. You know, we've kind of like, okay, even getting married, you have those doubts, you have what, if you know this turns out and this turns out? But then you were like, oh no, inshallah, we'll be here, and you kind of push through it. That's what, the resilience and the patience that we got from our parents. But I think this generation they're just like no, I'm not even going to deal with the possibility of this not working out and the first thing I spot a red flag, then I'm cutting him out.
Speaker 3:I want to go back to the quote that you brought up earlier about Leila and Iman. I think Leila's stuff is come from a place of experience personal, interpersonal experiences that made her feel like this is.
Speaker 1:They're done. Yeah for her.
Speaker 3:And I think that's something that I don't know. If I mentioned that in the interview, that is something that she has to figure out within herself to see if that's the true thing. Is it because I've seen it so much that it didn't work out for a specific person in my life, which is she mentioned it with someone in her life, right, and because of that, now she's projecting it to make it seem like this is how everybody is, which is not true, right? And sometimes we make a decision based on from a place of trauma and those trauma can have annihilated us from the healthy relationship that we may have, because that's all we saw and it was so normalized for us to see it otherwise?
Speaker 1:Do you think I know earlier we had said the loudest voices seem like the majority, because we keep hearing that a lot that men are trash. Men are you know they're nothing or whatever. Do you think that's what's happening?
Speaker 3:Can speak generally about how men are trash. I think men have a lot of a place to improve in order for this institution to actually work, specifically because the standard is changed dramatically from what you guys are used to the expectations and they're not keeping up. They're just hoping that they forget about it. Who forgets to the girls? They're hoping they'll change their mind, they become desperate enough to get married, and then we're going to go back to that commentary man made. She said I'd rather wait.
Speaker 3:She's waiting. Hopefully she's not just waiting for them somehow, but she's also waiting. My optimism is she's working on herself too, working on her own self her own red flags, her own challenges.
Speaker 1:And then that's the other thing too. They're working on themselves, the girls, that's the thing, right, but nothing throughout the whole interview with the guys you don't hear. Okay, yeah, I'm trying to better myself, trying to get ready for marriage. So those are the ones.
Speaker 2:I disagree. I think the guys are getting ready and bettering themselves, but the only way they're told that they need to get ready is by making money. They have to be the provider, especially immigrant parents, immigrant men and especially, like our men, our women. You know some other men and if you guys notice from our event, they feel like their biggest burden is the money that they bring, and that's not true.
Speaker 2:That's what their genders are telling them, not us, no, no, no, no. But it's not just their gender, it's also their moms, their moms. In their way, they are preparing for marriage. When they're working, when they're going to school and trying to get the best education so they can make more money, they are preparing for marriage. If you guys notice also guys, when they know, they know when they want to get married and they see that girl that they feel like they want to be, they know it. It's not like girls we can be like oh, this guy loves me and this guy loves me, I can pick you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:We gravitate towards the one that we love more, but we have to think about it. For guys, they know, they're like pit bulls with blood, like they know Very persistent, very persistent. I was listening to this podcast that I thought was very dumb. This guy said you know, now the average man has to work 20 times as much than his grandfather did to get 20 times less of a woman than his grandmother. That was my reaction. I was like what the heck? What does it mean? He said it's the whole flation. What does that mean? Whole flation, inflation.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about it and I was like this sounds so arrogant and it sounds so flawed. And then I was like, okay, step away from the way you're thinking. What is he trying to say? Yeah, what makes a person get on a podcast and say something like that and what makes him believe that? Right? So I was like, okay, what does the grandmother do and have that my age or younger than me don't do or they don't expect of themselves? Right, she stay at home, mom, probably. I'm thinking the grandmother is like she cooks, she cleans, she's the, she's the bakes, and she's more obedient. Right, she's more submissive. She has kind of an idea of the role.
Speaker 3:She didn't have any choices, just kidding, that's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I'm thinking from his perspective, right From his perspective. He's like these are the things that make this grandmother awesome Is her submissiveness, her ability to cook and clean, her knowing her place and then also not being out and about with every person because she's sexually free right.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying that that's wrong or right. Live your life, but that's what he's saying. What is wrong with this girl that he's talking about? Normally they feel like cooking is if you can cook, great. If you can't cook, great. If you want to clean, great. If you don't want to clean, great. If you want to be sexually exploring, and great. So he's like there's no rules and regulations for the girls put on themselves, but they have a large expectation on the map. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:That's not me. That's what he's saying. That's what I'm thinking.
Speaker 2:That's what his thought processes. So now throw away the garbage and pick out like what I felt like was a gem in that trash, right. The truth is now, if you walk down the street and if you walk, talk to 10 hundred women and you can ask them to rate themselves. Everybody will rate themselves above average. In relation to what In relation?
Speaker 1:to the men.
Speaker 2:In relation to the men. Okay. And if you ask them hey, would you marry a guy that makes this much? Would you marry a guy that's making minimum wage? Would you marry a guy that's making $100,000? A lot of girls out in these videos tend to say that the girls that he's talking about, and necessarily people in our community I don't know if that's the same way. They tend to say I will not marry the minimum wage guy, I'll marry the double to triple to do a guy. And I'm like, okay, how would I answer this question? Or how would a person that I feel like I would respect answer this question? And then I would say something like I really don't care how much money he makes, as long as he's going somewhere. I don't care if you're a gender today, but then you're planning on going somewhere, so do you think?
Speaker 1:you're an exception, or do you think there's a lot more women that think like that? I?
Speaker 2:think there's a lot more women that think like me. I feel like my age women are like I'm okay with whatever you start with, as long as you're going places. I feel like younger generations. They want the already built quick move in home. Does that make sense? I think the moral of the story is, I feel like the idea of working on yourself meaning you attract what you are most of the time. If you're working on yourself and like trying to better yourself and you're trying to be more introspective, and If you're looking for a person that is at your caliber or better, you have to meet that person where you want them to be. You know what I mean. You can't go dumpster diving and then expect to find a diamond. You have to be able to go to the jeweler and like snoop to find a diamond.
Speaker 3:I want to go back to the conversation about the men in our community and how finance is the only thing that they are working towards.
Speaker 3:As getting ready for marriage, right? I think that is definitely, whether it's been taught to from their parents or from their men, from their community. It's time for them to not use that as a crutch and saying I'm learning this information from here, right, and not saying you know, what else do I need to do as a husband besides money? How else can I be a better husband? What are some things that I can do better because?
Speaker 1:the girls are thinking about that already. That is the key.
Speaker 3:The girls are already thinking about that.
Speaker 3:They're thinking about okay, I want emotionally supportive, I want to figure out conflict, I want to understand my attachment to my love languages, all these things Right. But the men are like, okay, I'm doing what I need to do, which is this, and I put all my basket of energy to this. And then, when marriage time comes, I found her. She's the one I'm going to pursue her and help get her married. And then now, like he's married, and the girls like well, I also like flowers. Yeah, right, I also like Foot rubs here and there.
Speaker 3:Yes, I also like date nights and not just the bills. I also like to quality time with you and I you just going to play basketball with your boys and playing soccer and not being available and then, that said, your weekends are gone. And then Monday with our work.
Speaker 1:Do you remember our event?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I remember a friend of ours talked about something that was very powerful enough that it had an effect on everybody else. She said, especially the guys. The guys, yeah, yes, because she said that I don't want you to just keep playing video game, I want you to also help me around the house. Yeah, build the house with me. That's what she said, because this relationship is not just about doing the bare minimum thing. It's about the investment together that we do. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because that's what they've seen from their dads. And these type of conversations need to be had because probably those guys that came to the event that's the first time they're hearing a saying.
Speaker 2:Exactly that's what I was going to say is most of the conversations that I've had with the guys that were there. They were like we loved that event. I want you guys to have more of this event because we didn't know this.
Speaker 3:Why are we the ones that it's going to be a vessel for them to figure out their life? Why can they Google? Why can they read a book? Why can they do more other work on themselves besides just saying I did my part and I'm perfect, I'm ready to get married. Like I read book. You read book Like how can I better myself? You listen to the padcats. You learn information Right.
Speaker 1:You go out of your way to better yourself, and the sad reality is that we're talking and having these conversations. Yeah, the vast majority of our listeners are women.
Speaker 2:Exactly that's what I was going to say is this is how I see it. Right, we can't build a time machine and make sure that their parents talk to them and their parents give them exposure. And then also the diagram about this is what you know, this is what you don't know, this is what you don't know, that you don't know. I feel like most of this conversation falls into the things that they don't know, that they don't know. You know what I mean. So they don't even know that they need to go look for these things, these materials, because for you to press on Google, you have to put on a question. You know what I mean, that's true, but if you don't know what question you need to ask, you're not going to get the information.
Speaker 2:That's true. I know it sucks, but at least for this generation, it's up to us to have this open conversation. When a guy is interested in you and you're interested in a guy and these are the actionable items that I was talking about for our female listeners be willing to have these conversations and at least pose this question. You don't have to answer these questions for him. Pose these questions so that he's able to answer it for himself.
Speaker 1:And he can go to Google and find you.
Speaker 2:He can go to Google. Yeah, what is EQ? There was someone that told me he's never heard of EQ, until me and him had a conversation and I was like oh okay, cool, you heard of IQ. Right, you heard of IQ, but you've never heard of EQ. Clearly it's low. No, I didn't say it was her, that was good, but that was good.
Speaker 2:So I think girls, ladies, sisters, please be willing to be the catalysts. You don't have to have the answers, you don't have to be the person that's answering, you don't have to be the person's dictionary or whatever, but pose the question so that at least that person knows to go find the answers for himself, and that's so important because I feel like I hear this a lot.
Speaker 1:I hear the sentiment of I'm not raising him, I'm not his mother, I'm not his teacher, I'm not his whatever. But that is so right that you have to at least pose the questions because, at the end of the day, if you are trying to see if this guy is a potential for you, then you need to ask these questions.
Speaker 3:And I think sometimes what another thing that's happening is that there's a lot more emotional attachment that's happening prior to even asking this question, because you're already fully invested in this person. That asking this challenge question is kind of give you like, oh, I don't want to rock the boat, we're good at space right now. If I ask this hard question, what if he doesn't want to be interested anymore because we already invest so much time to get married and we have all this planned? That's why you have to take a step back. When you feel like there is attachment coming up for you with you and this person, you ask those questions.
Speaker 3:You know the question that's important to you. You know the things that you're afraid about marriage. Ask them, not in the sense that you're looking for yes and no answers. Ask them an open-ended question and where they can elaborate about what you're asking of them. For example, how do you see yourself in the next five years? Asking that question gives you understanding of their goals and plans, and even if there's somebody thinking about goals and plans Sometimes people don't you don't have to have a specific goal and plan. It's just that you have a thought process on where you want to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the emotional attachment thing is huge. I once listened to a lecture where he was saying how if you're trying to build a driveway, you don't plan to tree right in the middle of your driveway and then later on, when you have to cut it down, you can't because it's already a feeling that's growing and it's already nestled in your heart. So, approaching it and almost as a clinical yeah, honestly I'm saying, okay, let me figure out if all of these things are hit first, before I even have any type of attachment and I think one of the things that I was going to say was yes, be clinical.
Speaker 2:But then, at the same time, when a guy is approaching you and saying, like hey, I like you, do you want to go out to dinner? If your first thing is like, hey, I like you too, I think you're good looking, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But I want you to know I don't date for the sake of dating. My intention is to get married. So if that's your intention, okay, let's go to dinner and we can talk. Then, when he comes to dinner, he's prepared for heavy questions versus you know, like this, what's your favorite color and he knows that he cannot play with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then also, if he says no, he didn't waste your time, you didn't waste his time, you can go your separate ways. I think that, just right away being okay with rejection, being like okay with him saying I'm not really looking for a marriage, it's okay. More power to you, god, play your field. Not with me, though, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, it's true, it's just true. Yeah, I mean we hope, but I just wanted to wrap up. Do you have any last thing to say?
Speaker 2:So what are the takeaways from this episode? What should our listeners take away from our conversations now If you had to put it in a couple of pointers?
Speaker 3:I think, well, I'm going to go with. The fact is that come to therapy. You learn so much about yourself and please don't be afraid of therapy. We don't bite. We're very kind people, we're gentle, we're loving, and if you feel like you want to get married and have very prosperous marriage, I think it's good to have a discovery about yourself, your needs and your want, in a healthy manner and safe space, and then take the time to understand the regulation of your emotion, your attachments, your traumas and things like that. And once you understand that, you're able to come to a space with open-minded when you meet that person. You're not coming from a place of this like I have this bad experience and everybody's like this More. You're going to come to a place like what do you have to say about yourself? I want to get to know you and see if you are what I think you are and maybe change my mind about what I think about men before that's what.
Speaker 3:Two is that you know what ask people who are married all the day. How did you went through your process? What do you think you should do? If you are in my shoes? I think it's always too good to do informational interview when it comes to even marriage. Even if you're not like talking to someone right now, you should be always curious about the idea of asking questions like what would healthy marriage look like? How do I communicate this?
Speaker 3:What is the biggest problem that couples have in their marriage? Kids are a struggle, all of these things that you think that you're afraid of ask somebody who is in the marriage that you're inspired to be for yourself. But I think my takeaway is that there needs to be a place of compassion for our youth. I have a very positive feeling on how they're going to change a lot of our society, specifically Muslim-based African community, because they're challenging a lot of things that we're afraid to challenge. But at the same time, I'm also concerned because there's going to be there's a little bit of other infiltrating ideas that's coming to their view of marriage that is going to take them in the wrong path, and I think it's okay to have a curiosity mindset around that, but it's not okay to go in the extra end of negativity of what that is unless you have evidence that happened to you directly, not the negative experience that happened to you.
Speaker 3:Does that make sense? But I think we had a good conversation. I'm really curious to understand more young girls who are listening to this episode of you know, just youth in general who are seeking to get married, and how this episode is beneficial to them, because I think it's a very interesting conversation overall. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:I would say my takeaway is that I'm hopeful for our next generation, the young people.
Speaker 1:They are working on themselves, they are doing the work and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:One thing I would say to our listeners is that we've asked them what they're looking for and a lot of times they came back to the issue of values and they have to be aligned with my values, just making sure that where those values come from and I think the habit you hit on that and that there are a lot of ideas, there are a lot of things circulating in our community and things are changing so fast that, just one generation removed, some of the ideas is just baffling even to myself.
Speaker 1:So just realizing that, at the end of the day, we are Muslim and we are blessed with Islam and there is a place for marriage and Islam and it is a cornerstone of the Islamic society, and so just realizing that and knowing what Allah Spontana calls from you and what you're supposed to do, and really getting the knowledge, because you can't know what you're supposed to do if you don't know it, you know what I mean, if that makes sense. So just pursuing the knowledge and knowing exactly what Allah Spontana wants from you personally and from the union, for our listeners.
Speaker 2:If they take away anything, I think it's about one, like my co-host said earlier is knowing what you want, knowing what you need, knowing what you're willing to compromise on, knowing your non-negotiables, working on yourself. Also, understanding that you are not perfect, having mercy for the other person. And then also understanding that women talk about marriage more often. More frequently we plan for marriage from a very young age versus men. So having mercy for our brothers when they seem a little bit ignorant or a little bit unaware about the things that they need or to know about marriage and the questions that they need to pose. So being able to be of assistance to each other because, at the end of the day, this is supposed to be a union, this is supposed to be a collaboration, it's supposed to be a partnership. So it can't be like, oh, I'm not going to help. We even help our classmates, right, like a little bit. Hey, you don't know the answer for this thing. This is how we work it out. You know, giving them the formula a little bit.
Speaker 2:I'm generalizing here and I'm not specifically. I'm not talking about the jerks or the sweethearts. I'm just talking about, in general, men in our community. It's not their fault because our previous generations didn't do a really good job preparing them for marriage for today's age. They focused on money, finances. They focused on strength and masculinity, but not about emotional availability, not about friendship with a woman. Some dudes don't know how to be friends with a girl, and most real, honest, good relationships, lasting relationships, start with friendship. You know you have to be friends, you have to like each other, you have to have that communication in a very non-romantic way before you get romantic. So being able to have Rahmat I feel like that's one thing I ask is and I hope they take away from this is having Rahmat and willing to be the catalyst for our brothers.
Speaker 3:I'm going to challenge that and I think also the man needs to step up, they need to step up, they need to step up. That's all I can say. There already been so much compassion for the aspect of the things and I think girls are doing this is not about men or women kind of fighting each other. I feel like generally, we enable them in many aspects of it and I think that's where a lot of Because it's mothers raising them right, and that's what I'm saying. I want to take out those enableness that we put on them and saying you know what? It's your responsibility to go learn about yourself, figure out what's important in marriage. Not for me to feed it to you, but I can ask the question. I don't want to enable right now, at this stage.
Speaker 1:You can bring them to the water, but you can't force them to drink.
Speaker 3:Exactly the possibility go get a book go to a seminar, get a life coach. They're a man, life coach, who can help you through this process, right, but there are other ways to do it and I know for sure girls who are going to listen that they hear that part of comment that Bonnie made and they're going to take it as negative. That's not how Bonnie meant, as it's just that there are some guys who don't have that support, but there are also guys who don't want to do those work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3:And use it as a weapon as a weapon.
Speaker 2:I mean, there are both sides in every space, right. There's girls that are willing to do the work. There's girls that are not willing to do the work. There are girls that think that they're the shit. But they are nothing. They haven't done any work. They're full of trauma In every aspect of life. There's a lot of people that are not.
Speaker 3:I think we enable men more than we enable the girls.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, but when we say we, who's the we? Again, I'm thinking about Collectively, societally, culturally. I disagree, not this generation. I feel like this generation, either, expects too much from men without giving them the resources. Why does the girls have to?
Speaker 3:give them resources. Why can't they do the resources?
Speaker 2:Like I said earlier that there's things that they don't know that they don't know they're because of in society, by their previous generations, by their parents. There are so many men that are not allowed to go into their mom's kitchen. So if you ask them what is A spatula, yeah, they would not know what a spatula is. That's not their fault in the culture that they grew up in. No, I disagree.
Speaker 3:It is. It is Honestly.
Speaker 1:Okay, but honestly okay, you say you were raised like that, right, you don't know what a spatula is. But now you grow up, you leave your parents' house, you go to college. You go to college. It's on you.
Speaker 2:You're a girlfriend. It is, but here's the thing. Let's use the spatula metaphor, right? Yeah, you don't know what a spatula is. You go to college. You need to flip eggs and you've been using the pan your whole life and you've been doing your eggs. You just never used a spatula. They don't even know how to do the eggs. That's what the problem is. No, no, no. I feel like we're mixing metaphors. Now. We're talking about spatula, right? They don't know. There's this thing called spatula they could use as a resource to help them flip the egg. Does that make sense? Yeah, they've been doing it in a way because they're taught this. You just need to eat the egg. My only point is that some men don't know this metaphorical spatula exists. So being hey, there's a spatula, go find it. This is what a spatula looks like. I don't think that is too much to ask, but they're not under the rock.
Speaker 1:They're in the room of information. No, no, no. Honestly though, bonnie, like yes, say you grew up. Your mother has been catering to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now you're going to college, are you going to buy fast food every single day? You can't Google how to cook eggs or whatever In the video. It will say, okay, use the spatula, use the eggs, or whatever.
Speaker 2:We're oversimplifying the point that I'm making. The point that I'm making is, for example, if we're talking about a guy that's been catered all his life right my husband. He had sisters, he had a mom that literally did everything for him. So for him he was like, oh, I don't know how to do this. I mean, when he went to college he cooked for himself. Exactly. My point is this yes, he cooked for himself, but when me and him got together he didn't know how, like how much a dishwasher had to be full before you run it. Does that make sense? He would be like it would be halfway full and he would run the dishwasher and I'd be like that's a waste of water, like, can you fill it up? And he didn't know this kind of dishes go on the top and this kind of dishes go on the bottom. Or don't put the pans in the dishwasher, because that takes a lot of space. That's things he didn't even know, that he needed to know.
Speaker 3:That I didn't mind saying I think what I'm saying and what you're saying is kind of similar in some aspects of it. But I'm just saying man doesn't always have to focus on finances only to keep sustainable marriage. They also need to work on the other stuff.
Speaker 2:Yes, we all agree on that. All I'm saying is that it's also not that much, unless you're like building a man from scratch. You're not build a man from scratch Like, hey, he is not willing to do anything, but I'm like willing to teach him and make him something that he's not.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying that, I'm just saying it's both of their responsibilities that he also has to be man enough to kind of get rid of the ego and when you tell him, hey, this is wrong, do it this way, take it and do it. And she also has to be willing to point those things out. Yes, instead of being like, okay, well, I mean as most as like why aren't you getting it? Type of thing.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think that's what it is. Like I said previously in the conversation, it's about pointing to the things like hey, there's this resource out here, but here's the question that you need to pose on Google that you didn't know to pose. That's my point. You can go to Google and pose this question and find the answer, or go to a dictionary and find the answer. How long?
Speaker 3:is she going to do that? That's called emotional laboring. How long does she have to?
Speaker 2:do that. What do you mean? How long Are you talking about a specific relationship?
Speaker 3:No, I'm just saying generally, for which type of marriage right now, which is talking about for how long the girls has to keep providing, pushing and kind of encouraging them to self-destruct themselves?
Speaker 2:Are you talking in marriage or outside, like where they're trying to go to marriage?
Speaker 3:Going to marriage, going to?
Speaker 1:marriage. Okay, I think what is needed is something outside the girl. I feel like the community needs to deal with this issue, not us. Yes, I agree.
Speaker 1:Some kind of mentorship, some kind of course, some kind of counseling, some kind of premarital stuff, where they're saying okay, these are the things you need in this day and age, all that stuff, right, and it'll take burden off of me, right? I think that's what needs to happen and the bar is being challenged Because I'm going to resign. Yeah, if I have to be like, okay, this is what you need to put in Google, I'm going to be so resentful and he's going to be like okay, don't treat me like a child. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I think maybe our base guys is the person that we're thinking of when we're talking about this guy.
Speaker 1:Me and you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all of us. Yeah, it's different. I'm thinking of a guy that I could possibly be interested in getting married with that I feel like, oh, you have these qualities.
Speaker 1:you're a person that's willing to learn, that's a person that has no ego, but you can't do that when you're trying to get to know them, though, because no?
Speaker 2:you don't go around to random guys and be like put this on Google, like that's not what I'm saying, but I'm saying all of this comes after you get married when you're living with a person is when you realize you don't know how to do this.
Speaker 2:You don't know how to do that, but we're telling the girls to ask these questions before they get into the situation, so they don't you can't know that he doesn't know how to run a dishwasher. No, before that she's. I don't think she's talking about specific. I'm not. I'm not talking about specifically this. We're saying the questions that we ask in general it has to be in before and sometimes those questions they don't even know to ask themselves because they have never been posed for them.
Speaker 3:I'm just saying I'm saying just don't enable them. Yeah, give them a book and tell them go figure a lot.
Speaker 2:See, you just said give them a book. Yeah, I'm okay with giving them a book, but being like, go and read, read what.
Speaker 3:Read who which material. I would probably do that as a friend. Like you know which I'm going to start charging, but you know what I mean. Like, anyway, we gotta wrap it up.
Speaker 2:It got intense at the end it did, it got really good.
Speaker 3:But I just don't like the idea of enabling anyone and I think people should take accountability. Rahmat is my big word. You can have Rahmat but also not enabling people. Yeah, but I just want to say Jazakullah Khair, and this has been really good conversation, so I just wanted to appreciate you both ladies, to kind of have very intense loving.
Speaker 1:We just all want to get together and get married. That's all we want. Yeah, inshallah, yes, all right. This has been difficult conversations, so, michael, our next item.