Difficult Conversations
Difficult Conversations
Asiya's Path to Intentional Parenting
Have you ever wondered how Montessori principles can transform not just your child's learning but your entire approach to parenting? Join us as we sit down with Asiya, a devoted Montessorian and mother of two, who has embraced this revolutionary methodology in her home. Asiya’s insightful journey into Montessori parenting began after the birth of her first child and has profoundly impacted her family dynamics, making parenting a more intentional and fulfilling experience.
In our discussion, Asiya shares her story of balancing work, parenting, and societal expectations. She shares her personal struggles with striking the balance and the importance of emotional regulation, modeling behavior, and intentionality in parenting.
Tune in for this enlightening episode that promises to offer a fresh perspective on parenting and family dynamics.
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As-salamu alaikum, welcome to difficult conversations where we tackle taboo topics in a safe space through empowerment and education. As-salamu alaikum, bismillah Rabi, shraheel, sadri wa-Asrili Amri wa-haloo al-uqadat al-Malissani, today we are really excited because this is a topic that I've been doing a lot of research on and always trying to be better at, and we have a guest here that I've been really looking forward to. Asya is a Montessorian. She's a lifelong learner and a mother of two kids, so I'm really excited to pick her brain about the Montessori approach and her relationship with her kids and how she got to her parenting style.
Speaker 2:I am so excited because I feel like I have so many questions and I have so many stories we should share and yeah, Thank you guys for having me on Welcome.
Speaker 3:Can you tell us a little bit more about what Montessori is and what got you interested in as part of your approach on raising your two amazing kids?
Speaker 4:The very first time I ever stumbled onto the idea of Montessori was after my first child, mediam. I was with her for about eight months. I just felt like I guess natural fitra to be with her. Right after and it was my first child I had no idea what I was doing. To be honest, I knew that I wanted to raise her in a way that was intentional.
Speaker 4:I remember going with my husband touring different daycares and something just felt off. You walk in and there's a lot of kids, there's a bunch of different colors and they're screaming. I didn't like it, so I would tour one daycare. It just felt like you're almost just leaving your child there and there was not much intentionality. It just felt like something that you just put there and then you go and then you come back and I would say that I was driven a little bit by anxiety I'm not going to lie, and then that's a whole different topic, but I was definitely the anxious mom. I was very overprotective I think I still am but just wanting to make sure my child was okay and there was an adequate substitute for me. When I look back, that's almost a little bit impossible, because how do you replace a mother right Fully. That's really hard to do. I think a part of me wanted an excuse to just keep staying home with her until she could at least develop language or tell me, hey, this happened or this happened, so that I know that she's not just this helpless thing that's just leaving her, and just the idea of abandonment and again a little bit of, for sure, anxiety, or first part of anxiety.
Speaker 4:I remember walking in, and this time it was just different a little bit because I walk in and the environment. It was like a world for tiny people, but it was like a real thing. There was no plastic, there was no plastic toys and all of that. There's little napkins and a small sized kettle. Everything was in little silver spoons and then you see a little two-year-old walking and setting up their table. Then they're putting like thing down and I just felt surreal and really weird and I was like what is this Then?
Speaker 4:So previously she sat down and she was explaining what it is and the monastery method. What I did, the first thing I did was I went home, googled and I found out that there's actually a monastery center here in Minnesota, one of the best accredited ones, and it's a nine month program I called hello. Can I please come and tour Me? As a person, it's not enough for me to just take my child there. I need to know everything about this and just me do it, not just to teach, but I wanted this. I wanted to take it and do it at home, I would say, for that year and the year after I was so indulged in it. Just going back to your question, what is monastery?
Speaker 4:Monastery is a method and it goes back to this woman who, 100 years ago her name is Maria Montessori, her last name, hence the name Montessori she was actually a physician, like profession, she was a doctor and she just stumbled into this world of children. One of the stories is that she was assigned to a word where, at the time, in Italy, in the slums of Italy, if a child had a deficiency what a maratu or something they say, oh, they would abandon the child, essentially, literally put them in a home and that's it, because they didn't have the idea of the health or therapy or all this other stuff. They just said, oh, this is a lost case and they just put all the children there. She was there because she was a physician. She had this background of observation. That's where it started from, observation, and that's a theme that's going to come back. She observed this children and she realized she started picking up on certain patterns. If you do this, this happens. If the child sees this, this happens. Then slowly she would introduce materials, and these materials were scientific materials, it was handmade and beautiful, and all of that.
Speaker 4:Then, soon after these children who were literally thrown away or locked up or were seen as completely mentally insufficient, they were concentrating and doing things unimaginable at the time at least. She's like wait, I'm onto something. And so she kept doing that. Through this process of observation and centering the child and the child's needs and reacting and experimenting, she developed this set of rules of if you do this and you set up this and you act like this, this happens. That's where it all started from Then. From there, she started her first school, or CASA, they call it, and she named it the House of Children. People from all over the world would come and observe these children who they thought were like miracle children, because they would do things like concentrate and cook and clean and be courteous, and things that you wouldn't think that they'd be able to do. It broke stereotypes of children are because they don't know anything.
Speaker 4:Children in general forget just the children that they thought were mentally insufficient, Even the ages of zero and six, which is when they go to school. Nobody really gave them any significance.
Speaker 3:A lot of parents from different cultural backgrounds. Especially where we were raised, it wasn't taught to implement that autonomy. And what does that look like for my kids? When you heard about it first time about the monastery and what triggered for you is this is the thing that I would want to implement in my house.
Speaker 4:I think it was just this idea of again going back to a little bit of the anxiety and stuff that there's something about this time. Why do I feel so visceral? Why do I have this reaction of this child needs attention? That was in Spanish. Sometimes something that you from the outside see as anxiety or depression, or this or this or this Others could bring about good, that you don't even realize that it could lead to something. If I didn't have that then maybe I wouldn't have been as determined to find a solution that I felt like, okay, this is it. When I look back at it it was almost like a blessing in a way. I said there is something about this age. And what is it? Monastery said you're right, there is something about this age. This age is really important.
Speaker 4:Now we know psychologists, child psychologists. They say the most important years are between zero and six and you'll never get that and they have special powers and they literally mean that in a literal sense. One of the concepts is that we say my teacher Molly, she taught me this and this really stood out. She said what a child learns by the age of six, it will take an adult 60 years to master Absolutely. And I was like what? And she's like, think about it, language, six year old. If you take a six year old from Oromia or any place of the world, china, wherever it is, they speak the language of their people perfectly. They speak like that. You know, this is a person of that background, you just know.
Speaker 4:Now take me and try to teach someone who's an adult a language. They'll have an accent, what they do. And so when they say, your mother's tongue, when did you learn your mother's tongue and why are you proficient in it? Because you heard it during what they call the phase of the absorbent mind. So between zero and six, the child's brain doesn't decide what to learn. It literally absorbs it, and they do it subconsciously. And that's what's so powerful, because do you sit down with a two year old and be like, say and teach language? We don't teach language. Think about it. Who teaches a child how to talk?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I want to go back to that because, as someone who works in mental health field, some of the things that I usually stress on a lot of the parents is that is the focus that you need to on the first 10 years of your child's life, because before the age of six, that's what the personality develop, that's what the moral code develop, that's where they understand the emotional regulation aspect it developed too because, like you just said earlier, they observe even the emotional aspect, not just the language, the societal aspect. Everything happens is they are observing, they're learning the way adult in their life navigate that aspect of it, and so when you touch that, it makes sense, because working with adult and trying to learn a lot of those things, it's just like wait, this is what I'm talking about, this is what's happening. I see the pattern, I see the triggers and the things that was not implemented for you early on.
Speaker 1:So then, how do you set up your child for success within these six years, especially if, like in this day and age, when we're busy and, like you know, we're going to school, we're working, how do you achieve that balance?
Speaker 4:That's a really hard question and I know the answer, but I don't implement. Like is how do you implement it? As a different question, we can have an answer. We can say, do this, but then how to do it, or if it's feasible or so. For example, if you say, like it takes a village to raise children, it is, it does, but what if the whole village is at work? Yeah, what are you going to do?
Speaker 4:It's like, because right now, as society is set up, honestly, it does not center zero to six. It does center women and their needs, because even the idea of like a working woman, I would say like we were expected to go back to work, like men, it wasn't like built around, how does a woman need or work, or how do we make sure that she's able to maintain this bond? Because, yeah, especially like zero to three, I would say like there's, I mean with the breast milk and the attachment, and even just like the oxytocin and everything, it's not normal to separate a newborn Not a three-year-old, not a six-year-old, a newborn, a two-year-old, a one-year-old, from their mother.
Speaker 4:That's not natural. And we can pretend it's natural, we could do that because we want to do this and this and this, but the reality is that it's not optimal for the child. And then, on top of that, if we're going to place them because a lot, even professionals or child psychologists, they will say daycare, the way that it's set up isn't for children, and so monastery is a little bit closer to that. But still to replace that, I think that it's hard. And so when we say balance, there is no balance. There's no way you can balance career and then home and then wifehood. That idea is just. It's a fallacy, I think, because there's always a price, and even if it's not monetary, there is still a price, and you have to somehow put it in. Something has to give.
Speaker 4:Something has to give, and I think this idea that we sell women is like right now, and I feel like I was sold that you could have it all. You could do this. You can be a boss and then da, da, da, da da, and then also come home and also your marriage can still thrive and still be this amazing mom with no nanny, with no help, with no mom, with no village, with no other parts. No, like that, it's unrealistic.
Speaker 1:So then, when you stumbled upon the Montessori way of raising kids, were you able to kind of morph that into your own parenting style, to kind of apply it to your life, or how was that journey for you?
Speaker 4:I think, obviously, I would say one of the other things that really stood out is that a lot of the things I learned in monastery was so compatible with what Islam says about children and like, even like the fitrah or, like they call it, like the horme or the nemei, the hormei and all this. But really what they're describing is like that fitrah exactly, or this, like this tendency. So children actually have phases in life, right, they say they need need for communication or need we're adaptable because we have universal tendencies. So if you take a newborn and you put them in a country, they become that, they become the environment or the product of their environment, and they're also adaptable and so that makes us like be able to like survive and all of that. So I would say, because it's based in science and like just observation and stuff, it's like the human study.
Speaker 4:Then, of course, a lot of it is going to align with what our Dean says, for example, and one of the things right now, six years into it, right, if you were to ask me what is one thing about parenting, one thing like one giveaway from monastery, all the other things from a Islamic perspective, everything that you've put time and effort to learn is that the children become what they see and what you model. That's where the buck stops. Like that's literally the end of it is like you need to model it and it needs to be in the environment, because if it's not in the environment, what are they going to acquire? You want your child to be honest. Where are they going to get that from? From where? So modeling and a lot of it, even like emotional regulation and all the other things it's like they need to see it.
Speaker 3:I was going to ask you about that. I was going to say more about that. The emotional regulation aspect of it.
Speaker 4:Basically, they need to see it modeled and monastery is huge, so they have like three components one is the child, the environment and the adult. So the adult is the guide, so the guide. Or in practice, I remember when I was going through the course they would have us walk around the classroom and our shoulders up, next up, how we walk, how we place things down, because they say, children do what they see and they can't do both. You can't talk and model. It's too much, especially at a young age. So we will be like let me show you how to put a cup down, and then you just be quiet, no words, and you literally put your hand. Did you hear anything? No, and then they will be like oh, and it works.
Speaker 4:At first it felt so silly and of course I don't have the time to do it all the time, like when you talk about adapting it. Okay, I don't do it like, but I do it, but I'm intentional. At least I try to be. You know, I learned that the hardest part about parenting is yourself and all of your bad habits, your bad language, your bad attitude, you like and how, even how you eat. The child will copy you like, they will copy you to the tea. They will absorb it, and so it's about now. The way I think of it is, honestly, 99% working on myself, and then I know that that's going to be emulated by my children. That's not easy, and so work on progress.
Speaker 3:There's a lot that goes into that, but yeah so did they talk about, like, what is gentle parenting looks like in that aspect of it, and how do you walk through that and try to implement in your own house?
Speaker 4:so gentle parenting. So a lot of times I feel like this gentle parenting is like thrown around. It's like gentle parenting on children, but like a lot of people, we don't even know what that means or that. So like what is gentle? What do you mean? Gentle parenting?
Speaker 4:is that you know. And so from the more like monastery perspective, it's one thing about monasteries it is universal and they emphasize on culture. So like, for example, if you go to a monastery school in Denmark, that's going to look very different than you know, one maybe in you know a different place because culture is emphasized in Somalia or Ethiopia or whatever they say. Like the child needs to be able to adapt to its time and place. So you want to use that like if you eat on the floor, teach the child how to eat on the floor, like that's, or with the last sticky, or if you're doing the table with the spoon, and so it's like, or it's going to be chopsticks, and there's a huge emphasis that we don't want to separate the child from its time and place, because then they need to adapt and be among the people, right, and so at least for us, the way we've adapted is like, especially with discipline. I was very keen to actually look into. Like the Islamic references and like what does that mean?
Speaker 4:I've had a lot of conversations with my husband on this and, again, knowing what to do and doing it is two different things, because you know what to do and then when your child does something and you are just like at your end and you just like I will, and some of that sometimes it comes out and it's again going back to emotional regulation. But I realized that, okay, the Prophet are best role model and you know, I used to be like there isn't a lot of like Islamic work on, like where is like the children, child raising, all of that. And then I realized, hold up, he modeled and then he made the adults around him amazing. And then naturally, the children came up and now it's like, okay, yeah, that world opened up for me.
Speaker 4:And so you know the Hadith about like, if your child doesn't pray by seven, encourage him. And then I by ten, right, yeah, okay. So I'm like, hmm, prayer is the most important thing, yeah. And so now I think about like a ten year old who's been like slapped all his life. He doesn't care. By the time he's ten, yeah, he's like oh, my dad, what side do you?
Speaker 2:want.
Speaker 4:If you're always doing the same thing. If you're always doing that, then when it matters, it doesn't matter it doesn't matter.
Speaker 4:So it's like why are you doing this? And a lot of times, I think, where parents is like whatever form of discipline, are you doing it intentionally or are you doing it because you're reacting? And a lot of times it's because you're acting like when you have that and you just look up and you know that person's gone. So now you're like I'm getting in trouble because I couldn't emotionally regulate myself. I did something wrong and now you lost it.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and what does that teach the?
Speaker 4:child to yeah, yeah, there's no emotion, yeah right, yeah, but yeah and it's like for me, I'm like okay, so if we're gonna do that, then let it be for when it matters. And also there is also rules around that, right? So it's just like it's not saying gentle parenting is not like, oh yeah, the child does whatever they want, you don't care, because that actually has a lot of negative consequences. On the other side, there has to be rules, but most of the rules is like you follow it and you model, you are their superhero, their dad is the superhero, their mom is and you are this thing that they look to and they can't help but absorb, and so that's gonna minimize a lot of it.
Speaker 3:And then also there has to be like if a child spills milk, it's okay what's the get a carpet like it's fine, it's not a big deal, it's not, and also it's like, really, that's what's gonna be the issue, right and I think it's.
Speaker 1:For me, it's a lot of self talk. For example, fatou, she's like at that age where she wants to get into everything. She'll like throw everything down. The house is a complete mess. But then I'll ask myself, like okay, is it really important for the house to be neat? You know like she's not watching something and she's keeping herself busy. She's coloring all over the walls, but you're gonna paint it anyway. For me, it's a lot of like talking to myself and telling myself okay, and if she does do something wrong, I ask myself, like if you hit her now, what is the lesson? Is she really gonna know that A equals B or that, like this led to that?
Speaker 4:will a two year old really understand? They do understand. They understand a lot. So it's not to like downplay that when I hear stories of like back home because I was like obviously raised here and stuff there was like a big field, the kids go out, they play, they play with the mud, they play with the rocks, they do those things. But now I feel like the lifestyle of like not maybe being able for the child to like roam outside or do these kind of things. They need to move, because how else are they gonna learn balance? It's literally vital for children to be able to move, climb. Even though I'm the type of mom's like don't do that, but it's like that, I'm like, okay, no, he has to climb and fall, like get up on something, because they're very sensorial and we cannot expect children to just sit there, unless, of course, there's a screen. That's a whole different thing, right?
Speaker 3:conversation.
Speaker 4:We're gonna get to that one yeah, but it's just like most of the time it's hard to just redirect, redirect, redirect, redirect, pick up, show them redirect and a lot of times do we even teach children where to put stuff back to like a two year old? No, we say, don't take it down or we'll have like these, like things that are untouchable, can't touch this, can't touch that, it's a museum yeah don't touch this. It's or it's a show. Yeah, don't get in that.
Speaker 4:Wrong, don't get into that yeah so it's like what can they touch, what can they break, what could they do, yeah, um.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I'm learning a lot in this episode I've been kind of being introspective a little bit and understanding like, okay, this is the things that I'm doing and how does this apply, and so on and so forth. One thing consciously, I feel like I'm not pro to gentle parenting. I think it's such a western idea. Yeah, so my understanding I should say not whatever the is the out there, but what my understanding from my own research of what gentle parenting seems to me I was like this is not for or people like that also comes from the idea that I grew up with discipline.
Speaker 2:I grew up I call my grew up here I grew up with that, you know, or more parents that were very disciplinary and discipline meant physical discipline. So, and I was very adamant, I was like there's no problem. I turned out completely fine, like you know, like there's no problem with that, and I think my kid is teaching me the difference of why that's not necessary, if that makes sense, why physical discipline is not necessary and why not necessarily gentle parenting, because I don't there's so many different contexts with that but being gentle with your kid, why that is so important, and I'm learning that even when you were talking about teaching him to put it down, or teaching your child to put something down and how to put it down, and do you hear the noise of that cup being put down? Like you know, I mean that is something that he, my child, taught me.
Speaker 2:When I do teach him and I take my time and I'm not in a hurry and I'm not looking for my convenience, right, I was reacting most of the time and I was trying to make things convenient for me and not necessarily convenient for him and how would work for him and how he would learn, and I think he was around year and a half and two, that literally I feel like he sat down and educated me because he was like I'm learning from him and I take my time for him to understand. He picks up and never forgets right.
Speaker 2:I mean there are moments you know that there are slip-ups. He's a kid. But if I'm just like don't do that or, you know, getting frustrated, he literally was like I don't care, I mean.
Speaker 2:So it's so funny, like that feeling of humbling it's very humbling but I feel like one thing I took I don't know, I think it's the mercy of Allah, like I knew was that my house is their playground, that I never purchased anything in my house that I considered too valuable not to break and I mean my husband's. Before we bought, we built our house and like bought anything when we were in the apartments we talked about. They're not gonna get punished for riding on the wall and like being messy. There is a discipline in the sense of like know where to put things away, know that this is your space, this is my space, this is valuable for me. Please do not break it If it's an accident, g'darallah. But like not treating anything I think too valuable and more important than their experience.
Speaker 2:And I think that there is. Is it Neil DeGris something? Tyson the astronaut scientist, whatever? He was in a podcast and he said when you interrupt your kid from doing something dangerous safely, you're taking their opportunity to learn something Doing something dangerous safely. And I'm like that is so important Because if they are performing it safely and if they're doing it, okay, let them. If they're doing something dangerous, obviously in terms of keeping kids in a bubble or protecting them and I also sometimes parent from a space of anxiety of being like no, don't do that, you're gonna get hurt but I'm really, really curious what does your day look like if you spent a whole day with your kids and you weren't going to work and they weren't going to school? How do you go from like morning to night?
Speaker 4:Okay, I think that's a good question. I do want to touch on one point that you said. So going back to like self-regulation and setting up your house for their success, or even so that they could navigate their home in a way that makes them capable and able, and all of that. And then if accidents happen, they happen. You can totally have a rule that your wallet isn't for a writing, but then provide them somewhere to write.
Speaker 4:So it's about setting your house up in a way that A they're familiar and you're introducing them to like we're big on child-sized things. So like putting the cups on their level and even providing glass and other things that are breakable but then teaching them how to use it nicely or like being gentle with it. But the thing is too, is that going back, the hardest part about a monastery at home is your own self-discipline. If you put something, for example, children at that age they can't self-order, so they need order. But if you order and you're consistent, you're consistent, they follow. So like, let's say, you have a broom and you put it somewhere and the next day it's somewhere else. Or the next day it's somewhere else. Or if the remote is somewhere else. Or you have a set of crayons and the toys and then it's somewhere else. But then now they don't know how to get it. It's chaotic for them and I think my biggest struggle as a homemaker personally is that organizational aspect of like okay, I need to make the house, not only for, not just for the children, but even for yourself. And like that's a skill, like people you know, homemaking is a skill. So it's parenting, it's a skill. You learn it and you unlearn some of the other bad habits. But it's about working around that. So, okay, to go back to your question, when I wasn't working at the time I would say like, let's say, if I am, or if it's a Saturday, or all of that, I would say, do you want to know what happened? Or wish, ideally, be like a monastery, both, both Okay.
Speaker 4:So ideally, in a monastery kind of environment, the child, even as young as two, they wake up, they are able to go to the bathroom by themselves, they have everything accessible to their eyes. So like they would go and then they would brush their teeth, or they'd get out of their bed and they would have like a little mirror that's their size, they could look at themselves and then they would brush their teeth and you'd help them, obviously, because that's important if they, you know they need it. But then they can go. They can go and get their cup themselves, because it's somewhere that it's accessible. They can go, get their plate and put it on there. They can get on their high chair or they're and, or they have a little table and then they can have whatever they need prepared is there for them, and so you would have everything there and they know every day if I wake up, my snack, my breakfast, my item is there. They go do it and it's astonishing what children can do if you are able to get to that. So they go, they prepare that and then they have chores.
Speaker 4:So Montessori is huge on chores and children doing work. So they actually don't say like playtime, we say like work, children's work, and then they need it. So it's like picking up after themselves or like wiping the table and they love working. So they do it because it's a process for them, not because to get it clean. So you'll have a six year old who if you see something dirty, they'll wipe it off. If you observe a three year old and you do like a little window cleaning activity and you have everything for them, they'll do it. Spray, spray, spray. They'll wait and they'll do it again and they'll do it again and they'll do it again and they'll do it again. And it's beautiful for them. It's about the process, not the end goal. They don't care about it.
Speaker 4:So now, if you interrupt, and then also if now the child is going and then they're washing their hand, and then they wash their hand again and they dry it and then they go in there, do a hand washing it and they do it again. Or they do a table activity again and again and again. What they start to do is they want, they're developing their will, which is very important, and then they're also deepening their concentration, and concentration is the single most important thing for lifelong Anything. Because if they can get into the habit of like being able to have that deep focus, guess when it translates over to when their memories are gone, when they're in school, when they're so, yes, they look like they're doing a little cleaning activity, but really, really, the indirect goal is concentration, right, so then they would do that. And so, really, a monastery house is where the child is able to do what they're able to do and they feel like they can contribute. And then you're also very, as much as you can, you're modeling, and then that's how the child is like observing.
Speaker 4:So when you're praying, when you're doing this, you're doing that, how you're talking, don't shout across the room, like that's a rule that we had. And another big thing too is like if there's more than one children in the house and they do something wrong or they like one hits you, go you. Obviously that is not okay. So you don't say, oh, don't. Do you say that is not okay and I will not let you hit your sister. You stop it and you're firm. You know I will not let you do that. You make sure that the other child that was like basically hit is okay. But you don't teach. This is not a teaching moment, because when you're mad do you want someone to lecture you? No, so you wait. And then what you do? Now I usually someone didn't just get hit, something happened. He was trying to get around her, she took something from him, something happened. So we have this thing called Grace and courtesy.
Speaker 4:And again, like what I absolutely love is that Islamically, if you look at the Hadith and the Sunnah and all of that, you see that the Prophet, I said that never says to a child. Why, right, why do you do that? Because they don't know why. Like that's so profound. Or the Prophet said one time was redirecting or said eat from your spot when they're just eating, like this is how you eat. And isn't everything that the Prophet said did modeling how to make Madoo, how to do this, how to do that. That's modeling and he did it. And one of the things that Allah says is if we sent an angel, they would say that's an angel. How are we going to follow an angel? But Allah swt sent prophets who are human like us, to model, so that we know we could do it too.
Speaker 3:Because that's the whole Sunnah right.
Speaker 4:It's modeling Exactly, and then that way we could do it, we could emulate, we could do, we could relate, we could follow and so really, you are the guide for your child. I had this like super, I guess, just this moment yesterday and I was thinking about my daughter's six right now she's, I'm happy with how things have gone so far and everything. And then you just think about if I was to basically try to describe what this means, or this like six years really means, is imagine for a second, a princess, or like a queen in a palace. What type of house would that have? They'd have. Like even the comb that the queen would use would be so Taking care of, so intricate, or like the bedding, all of that.
Speaker 4:Now think about a child that grows up in that environment. Do you think that child is able to discern, will have this, even the same aptitude for taste, or what they see as quality, or what they see? This is just an example. It's just an example. But like the environment, really like what makes that princess that, what's different about her than someone who was not, that grew up in a castle? Now think about, from an Islamic perspective, that a child who grows up and their dad is waking. He goes to the you know masajid. The mom gets up and is like you're making dua and you're crying and your child sees that. What is that? What kind of impression does that leave on the child? Or basically what you get to decide what to create.
Speaker 3:It's a huge responsibility and it's like, dang, I'm responsible for this child and their upbringing and all of that and what you provide, and so you be intentional and yeah, I think what you're saying around, that is that, from what I'm hearing you say about the monastery and how that's the implementing of that is a lot of implementing, and with the young people, what emotional intelligence looks like. Because what you're explaining is like there is internal motivation. The internal motivation is that you are when you get up in the morning, there is a routine that you have set for yourself Getting up to brush your teeth, getting up, changing your clothes, wearing the clothes that you need to do, praying and going to school. And all of that independently being made on to you is teaching young kids in a safe environment, which are also part of gentle parenting, because gentle parenting does not mean that your kids have full freedom inside their house. No, there has to be a discipline, but then the discipline without no reaction, but later explaining the process of how you came to that conclusion, why the things are wrong, but making them understand what that is.
Speaker 3:Let's say, for example, if they break a glass, we clean it up, but then you have to explain why breaking the glass is harmful to them. It will cut them, they will get hurt. That is helpful to do, but I think what also going back to a gentle parenting is part of Islamic. It is, and because we have not been raised around it, because of our cultural reason. But at the same time it's kind of combining the emotional, intelligent aspect of self-awareness. Emotional regulation is self-awareness. You, too, as a parent, what are some things that you are implementing in your household that you didn't get as a child, for example?
Speaker 2:You noticed, what I was thinking the whole time you guys were talking was the idea and I think she said it in the beginning was purposeful parenting. And I think for most of the time, and from the parents that are around me that I've noticed, and sometimes even from me I think we become very autopilot parents. We try to get past the six years when they're not easy to parent right and we're like I just can't wait until my kid can listen to me and understand what I'm saying and understand. No, and I have said that honestly, I've had that moment of like I just can't wait until I can tell you should put the stuff that he understands the first time.
Speaker 2:And we don't realize, like she said, the emphasis and the power and the importance of the six years. Everything that you do in the six years it's going to inform who they turn out to be and how they respond to your directions, even your presence. And I think when we think of parenting and we think of it as a way of life instead of a job, I think that's when the change will happen, Because when I was listening to her, I'm genuinely feeling like it is a way of life and I never thought about it that way. I always thought about it as a job, as something that I have to do right, and I love my kids very much Another title, another title, basically.
Speaker 2:So right now I'm a parent. My kid needs to eat, eat. My kid needs to shower, shower. My kid is safe, my kid.
Speaker 2:I personally felt like what was important to me was he's emotionally secure. He's emotionally safe. That's something that I wanted to implement. And fulfilling the biological aspects, yes.
Speaker 2:So I'm like you are secure, you're safe, you're provided for, you're emotionally safe. I want you to know how much I love you and I care for you and you get to be everything that you want to be in your discipline. And I also have to admit there's what would people say. I want people to tell my me my kids were well disciplined, my kids were oh, there's just such a good kids. They don't do anything bad and they're easy to manage.
Speaker 2:Right and that's also one thing I had to work on thanks to therapy is the idea that your kids are not here to boost your ego. They're not here to make you look like a good parent. They get to be kids and that means they get to explain and feel and move in the way that's beneficial to them. And are you providing that space? Are you making sure that they're safe enough to be the best version of themselves, or are you just doing things to make sure that people get to say you're a good mom or you're a good parent and you're present and you're ticking off a box of to-do list, right? Two points that are very clear to me is like parenting should be a way of life, not and you can correct me not just a job or a title or a to-do list.
Speaker 1:So what I hear you saying is like having an intention with your parenting and kind of almost having a goal to like, yes, my child is well fed and stuff like that. But then what else am I impacting and what, looking maybe 10 years down the line, 20 years down the line, what can I do now that will set them up for success in terms of you know, deed, in terms of personality, in terms of that emotional intelligence? And then the other thing I want to kind of touch on and you can give your opinion is like it seems and we know that it's a lot of work. So how does your spouse play into it? And were you guys always on the same page when having this type of parenting style, and was it something that you looked for before marriage?
Speaker 4:That's a big question yeah, I was 19 when I got married and one thing that I will say is that maybe for me personally, I don't think I was thinking about what's going to be his parenting style. I don't know, I just I. That wasn't. What I knew was I felt like this is someone who I felt secure with. He approached correctly. He was a person, was a family person, he was someone that would stop if someone needed like help in the side of the road to a fault. So like he was someone who was like giving, caring, all this. So I saw these traits.
Speaker 4:But I think you know in this like courting phase a lot of time, especially if you don't have experience, if you don't have like that background, how do you know what you're looking at? That's where I think when, like Wendy's and this, the tradition of like a sister, an older brother, a dad, a mom I know it's dying, but I really believe in the idea of courtship, not being just like you, finding somebody by yourself and like no backgrounds, no, no, this or that, because sometimes you can be diluted, or like this idea of I know best, and then it's like chemistry or like, oh, he's like you know good this thing, and it's like all of that.
Speaker 4:And it's like who's thinking about family dynamics? Yeah. Who's thinking about, like finances, how that's going to be high handled.
Speaker 3:Who's thinking about what you have had?
Speaker 4:or how will my husband react if our son disobeys him? Like, what does that look like? And then, what does that look like for you? Because you know that that's, that's his dad. Are you going to get in between A child and a dad, like a child and his dad? Are you going to do that? Is that healthy? No, but all of that. So it's like really going back to. I know I brought this idea of like a queen and a palace and all this. Really it's who you marry is like 90% of parenting.
Speaker 2:Say that again, for the people in the back.
Speaker 4:Who you are is 100% of parenting the two, because that is what the child literally. Not only we think about blood and bone and that, right, we think about DNA. They hear, no, they even character. Everything is that is your child, to a fault, will, and if they will, a fig tree produces figs, an apple tree produces apples.
Speaker 4:You cannot have this idea of I want my son to be like this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and you don't model it. One of the things like I, when I'm talking to my brothers and stuff like sometimes I'm like you know what's interesting and they have. You know, I have four brothers and they're like all older and stuff like that. But my dad, he was always a businessman. When we're younger, well off. All of that money wasn't a problem, it wasn't always an abundance, like it was never an issue ever.
Speaker 4:I never can look back and be like we were worried about that to a point where, like it would be kind of you for like, if you took this cup home, we would not ask you back and that was just the environment we were built in and so obviously no one's perfect and there's other aspects to it, but now if you look at my siblings and even me. I'm always talking about business. I don't know. Let's not talk about like the success of it, but the thing is is that that's programmed? It's a part of it, is what it is, it's part of the parental thing that has been taught to you from your dad.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and when I look at my brothers too, I'm like dang, like they don't realize that my dad didn't have to lecture us, he just was. That was the thing. And for me now, like also the aspect of money, no matter what to me, I'm like I can pass up opportunity, I don't care, because for me it was just like, inherently it wasn't an issue. Money will come, money will go, it's not an issue. So I guess if my dad just lectured us, lectured us, lectured us about something or like my parents did or whatever, but there was no doing, we wouldn't have picked it up so subconsciously you know?
Speaker 3:yeah, because that's how procrastination and sub-sabotaging comes into it, because you've been so much lectured into and people have been telling you so much to do certain things. Yeah, and now, as an adult, you intend to be like procrastinating the goals of the things that you want to accomplish because nobody told you how to do it and when you were doing it or showed you or praised you when you did it, when you tried, when you didn't go successfully, as well as pay thoughts.
Speaker 3:then you're now. You're like I know I can do that, but I'd rather not do that, I'm just going to go chill. You know, use self-sabotage because there is some sort of attachment, anxious attachment, to that thing, and what does result of it too is because I'm glad you mentioned that, because I was talking to Sabani- about this Going back to like the idea of like courtship and like looking at that.
Speaker 4:So, like my husband and I were having this conversation yesterday and we're in a space we're like super honest, right, and we're like we feel safe and it took time to build that. I asked him if you were getting married now, whatever, but like if you're looking for characteristics in a wife, would you have picked me again? You know that picture then, or picture now Like knowing what you know now, would you pick me as Would? You pick and he's like I hope he said yeah.
Speaker 4:You know, yeah, he's like a million times over. However, and the thing is is that I feel like, as you experience life, you are more, your standards are higher and same for me, I feel like, if the next thing is like, as you get older, as you experience life, your standards of what you tolerate or what you even need to look for or what you see as a red flag or this or that, it's different Because of experience, Because of experience. But then let's say, now you're 20, 21, and someone who's older a mom or dad is like that guy no, or this or that or that, or like they want to put input and you're like no, and it's like no, it's so important to learn from other people's experiences and wisdoms and all of that, Because if you say I want to just learn my way and want to do that, then that's that. But I will say what, for us, what we always fall back on is Dean, 100% Like, no matter what, whether it's parenting, whether it's like how we deal with arguments, whatever it is we fall back on that and I think that's our safety net of like okay, I know you won't cross the line and he knows I won't cross the line, Even with parenting. I know that if I want to approach him, it's going to be through the process of them. This is what I read, this is the thing, and for the most part, that really, really, really does help.
Speaker 4:What really surprised me about my husband is, like people don't know this, but he's actually, I would say, who has way more patience than I do. Like he has a lot more patience. But there's one part where I felt uncomfortable because in the end of the day, he's a man and he's a dad, and how he says no, it sounds way more force. It sounds like scarier than me. And I'm like, oh my God, are you damaging our children? He's like no, I'm just saying no, it's okay.
Speaker 4:And then I realized, and my son's coming up now and he's like wants to be more like daddy and stuff like that. And I'm like do I want two moms in the house? Is that what I'm like looking for, or do I need to make space for him to parent as a dad and not get in the way? And I needed to learn that and I needed to say like now I'm projecting, Now going back to like anxiety, some of that creeps up and I have to be aware. So when he's having a conversation with his son and he looks a little bit, his eyebrows are a little bit, you know, and he's like I'm gonna have a talk with you and my son kind of does this like look and his mom.
Speaker 4:I go, I look away. I look away and like, don't do that, because what I don't want to teach is this idea that good cop, bad cop, of like, oh, if they get in trouble with dad, they just can, especially him, especially the son, because there's a little bit more nuance to that, and so for me it's like if there's something about my husband that bothers me or something that bothers him about me, we have that conversation behind closed door and it starts with there's just this thing that I wish you could unlearn, or this thing, because then if you do that and you don't talk about children, then it automatically trickles down to the parenting. Like I wish you could communicate that better, or I wish you could. So if you guys can do that successfully together, he can do that separately, separately. Nothing to do with that.
Speaker 4:But there was a time where, like, he had to have a conversation with me and be like, hey, this is don't interject. And that was like what do you mean Don't interject? We can have a conversation separately, but in front of my son, in front of my daughter, and my tone is different. I am not a mom, you're the mom, I'm a dad, I'm. I cannot be like you and I can't have your tonality completely, I cannot adapt and they have a dad, so I need to do this in a way. That is is my way. And then when I really look at it and I examine him, like he's not even he's just talking to them, maybe his voice is deeper. He's like no, and they are like they sit up when dad comes in. He's when dad's like say hey, go to bed. They do, you know, they do. They will say Okay, and then I'm like that's not bad.
Speaker 1:So then do you think it also sets up the hierarchy?
Speaker 4:in the house. As they know, he's the boss. Come on, let's just be honest.
Speaker 1:Like they know, they know he's the head of the household and I ask that question because I feel like there's a lot of negativity like around just women saying that, yes, it's weird for me to say this. What are you talking about?
Speaker 4:I'm cringing. But here's the thing, though, when, when I say that I don't like this whole red pill, blue pill thing, I just say, sunna pill. Okay.
Speaker 2:I like Sunna pill. Okay, I don't like that.
Speaker 4:What's the red pill? Red pill.
Speaker 3:You know the Matrix movie is a red pill. It's basically that as a metaphorically being done with the way they come to talk about gender roles. Yeah.
Speaker 1:In the house.
Speaker 3:So who's?
Speaker 4:red who's the missus.
Speaker 2:Oh, is it like pink, blue, basically red.
Speaker 4:One of them is like crazy feminine, like they're like oh, we're equal. We are equal, that's not, but we're the same, like we're the completely the same. And then the other one is like the man, just like I think it's very abusive and like he's weird. So I don't know, I just feel like it's like yeah.
Speaker 4:And okay. So there's different between, I would say, misogyny, right Misogyny and patriarchy. So patriarchy is very different. Islam is patriarchal. It is yeah, but there's been a hijacked. Right now it is exactly, and that's why I say go back to the middle.
Speaker 3:But I will say that.
Speaker 4:I think it took a lot of work for me, I think, from just like an Islamic lens to to get to this point. But for me I'm like, okay, he is the head of the household. That needs to be respected. However, I don't know, but it's like he is in the end of the day, but that doesn't mean my children I'm not the third child, no, just as important in their development in the house, in the funk, like but we just played different roles. So, like I always say, let's say the husband comes and says hey, you know, actually I'm just thinking.
Speaker 4:I've been thinking I don't really want to work anymore and I feel like you're really good at this whole work outside thing. What about if I learn a little bit everything about Montessori and I stay home and I take on the housework and you work because I just feel more passion for this? Okay, honestly speaking, okay, not from like a West, what just you right from your background and Islamic and all of that. Would you be okay with that If your husband comes and says yeah, and he says I don't want to go out and work and all this other stuff. I want to be home, be the breadwinner, and I stay and I read the children. Would you be okay with that?
Speaker 2:I feel like I'm gonna be the odd one out here, but yeah, I feel like I would be from the space of if that's my happy, like if I am happy at work and I like what I do. Yeah, I think I would be okay with it, but that doesn't mean I will neglect my parenting.
Speaker 4:Like no. But I think if he said you work, you bring the income completely. I just want to work, I just want to be home completely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't know. Like I said, I might be outnumbered, but I genuinely don't think and you wouldn't lose respect like respect.
Speaker 4:You wouldn't lose respect at all, the slightest.
Speaker 2:And I think because for me it's about I want to make sure that we both live happily and content and doing the best that we know how to do and I'm not saying that the parenting is not the best thing that I know how to do, I can. You know, that's the most important thing in my life and the most important hat I wear. But if I am still fulfilled doing my job and he's no longer fulfilled doing his job, I don't mind it. Why should you go out and do something that's not fulfilling you, that you're not happy with? Yeah, the family to take care of. But I can right, we're assuming that my income is going to sustain us.
Speaker 4:Like, if that's the situation I should probably say yeah, no for sure, but that's your money. Okay, I have a question now. Let's say then and I don't want to go backtrack but, like I would say, does that then change? Who is, like, the head of the household? No, he's still the head of the household.
Speaker 2:Because I don't think. Oh, I know he's like no no Wait, can I? Just because, for me again, being the head of the household doesn't have anything to do with money. It has to do with the position Allah has put you.
Speaker 4:Now, okay, I have a question. Then. What you're saying is as long as he's happy, I'm happy.
Speaker 2:As long as we're both happy, we're unhappy, it's okay. If I am not happy working, that's not going to work.
Speaker 4:What if he says I don't want you to work and I want you to stay home? That's not going to make me happy, but he's the head of the household. So I'm going to say how does that play? Are you asking like what? Exactly? So now, what is the title of the head of the household? What does that come with?
Speaker 1:Does he?
Speaker 3:have veto power.
Speaker 4:Does he have veto power?
Speaker 2:Well, it's just that you have a veto Wait wait, wait, wait. Can I just say something?
Speaker 1:A title without doing anything is just a title. It's an empty title.
Speaker 2:So here's the thing, right. Yes, and I'm going to say this even if he's the billionaire and I'm this day at home mom, I will have a hard time with veto power. Let's put that out there. So it's not the fact that I'm going to be the breadwinner and therefore I have a problem with veto power. It's that even if he is the breadwinner and I am this day at home mom, maybe I should explain this like, growing up, I grew up with my parents, my mom, an extremely strong woman.
Speaker 2:She was an assistant engineer. She went to work, came home and I still think she was like an amazing mom and my dad also an amazing dad worked, came back and still at home, she was able to provide him the space of to be the person in charge, if that makes sense, and I never saw that taking anything away from her. So at home they lived by the dean Like she is going out, she is making money. She, he is going out, he is making money. I don't know who made how much more money, but he was a merchant, she was an assistant engineer. So, logically, she probably made more money, but he was working hella more Like if that makes sense. I always saw that at home. It was ask your dad, let's talk about it.
Speaker 2:Well, talk to your dad and we'll make a decision together and talk to you about it. It's a combined situation. I'm not gonna veto. If your dad said no, I'm not gonna veto and tell you yes, and if I said no, he's not gonna veto and say yes. So it's like always we're gonna talk. I'm gonna talk to your dad, I'm gonna talk to your mom and then make the decision.
Speaker 2:Yeah so that's what I grew up with. And then, even later on, everyone around me was the same dynamic. It was I grew up around very strong, not strong in this very hyper-liberal sense, but like actually very capable, strong, educated women that were able to go out, make money, come home. Their husbands go out, make money, come home and still put him in the space of his importance, his value. He is the decision maker, but we make decisions together if that makes sense. But I never saw veto be implemented, ever. That's why it's hard for me to say like I will accept veto. I think we have to discuss.
Speaker 4:Did you feel, but, like growing up and I think this is really important because, again, subconsciously, children do pick it up Did you have? Was there a sense of like dad was like the head for you, like we're growing up, there has to be a hierarchy, did you feel? Did you pick up the fact that, yes, in the end of the day, my dad is the head of the household? Did you feel that, without anybody saying it, without anybody saying it, without the veto?
Speaker 2:No, it was never talked about. I guess in certain ways he would override my mom in certain situations, but they were so far in between and they were not in major situations. I have seen him override my mom more than the other way around, but I never considered it as a veto power because it was so minute, if that makes sense, and it never affected her because it was like could she do something? And then it would be like it was more of like, oh, he's more relaxed, he's more chill today versus he has more power today, if that makes sense. To answer your question very directly, I've never seen like my dad is more, he has more power than my mom or he is more of a leader than my mom. I always saw that my mom had huge respect for my dad, or if all the females in my life had huge respect for their spouses they're the male figure and he was in certain decisions like dad's coming.
Speaker 2:He has to say we have to make dinner. Oh, I have to go home before my husband comes so that I'm able to provide, like to make dinner, and he you know that thing is there, so we noticed that, or you have to eat back home. It was like your dad eats first, or like unless we're.
Speaker 3:but they don't start. They were, they were indirect, so it was never veto was never implemented.
Speaker 4:It wasn't a veto thing, it was more of a respect and I think that's important because when we talk about like children, children need like a unit, and I feel like right now it's hard because, like when we talk about households and raising children, if the husband and wife, if that's broken, if the marriage is broken and there is at a marriage level, if that's not a teamwork and if that's not there, I do feel like that there is an indirect attack to the family unit in the society we live in, because it's like boss up, do this, do that right. And I had to undo a lot of things that I thought were better than how my parents did it. Because of what Western education of like this is what it's supposed to look like. Because sometimes, in a way, when we talk about white supremacy quote unquote, let's go all the way up. Then what makes their style of parenting or anything better if it's not backed by like science or something?
Speaker 4:And so this idea of like stability and in the household having a man who is responsible, who is responsible not just financially, and I feel like we see two extremes, like in our community, it's like one and a very absent father who's just there and the mom literally is the dad and the mom and she does everything the dad could care less. Like he goes, brings the money. There's no direction, there's no sense of like this is our mission. There's no sense of that. And then the other side of like an overbearing dad who's like a little bit abusive but now or a lot abusive and isn't respecting, like the mom or what she brings to the table or what she brings to the table.
Speaker 4:And the crazy thing is that woman does stay, but the problem is she stays and she oftentimes stays for the children. But then the children see that and they pick up on it and they say then they, especially the sons oh my God, it's so damaging because now someone is against their mom and that's the dad, and that's so confusing. So it's like I always tell women like if you're going to stay in a relationship, keep it to yourself, man, keep it like, keep it behind closed doors or leave it up anyway.
Speaker 4:If you can't I'm saying if you can't, don't reserve it from your husband and put it on your kids, because that creates a huge problem of like, especially with like sons that don't grow up having like that relationship, because it's so important for them to have like a father that they love and respect and all of that. And if that's damage, who is he supposed to model? And then when he gets married he's so confused and I feel like that happens a lot now. It's like we have confused men quote unquote who don't know what to do in a relationship at all, like should I do this, should I do that? And it's like, in a way I feel like it's a chicken out of the egg thing. But we do have to foster a relationship and say hold up, my parents weren't too far off, but I would have changed this and this and this. They weren't too off the marker, but even that slight thing created chaos, you know.
Speaker 3:What is something that you had to unlearn when it comes to the parental role within you and your husband? What is something that give us an example on what that was that you like? Okay, this is a Western thing that I need to unlearn. Can I reevaluate? How would that impact my family?
Speaker 4:That we're both the same.
Speaker 4:Okay, two things One, that my passion is everything, or like my, I guess, the idea of like.
Speaker 4:So for me personally anybody who's seen me yet I think I would 100% be more, much better at incorporating than a mom I know that I would than a homemaker, and people who know me enough well, maybe they would know that I this idea of like staying home, being a mom, that being like central and not my career being out there, because I've had multiple opportunities in my career to progress that I've passed up on, whether it's financially, whatever, and people have seen things, mentors have seen things in me.
Speaker 4:Like you, you can get really far or like climb the chain, all this, but I've always had to pass, or a lot of times have to pass, because I would think how is that going to affect me as at home and what do I have to give up Islamically or as a mom or all of that. And I think that I had to unlearn that the idea that family is just on, like passion, emotions and this, and that there are responsibilities and roles that we have to, at to some extent, like fall back on for there to be some sort of order, even if it's going to be at the expense of, like me, doing what I absolutely would love to do right now, do you?
Speaker 3:regret any of those decisions, knowing what you know now.
Speaker 4:No, I don't. I don't think that my husband goes to work every day like, oh my God, this is amazing. When go do this, like there is a sense of like I need to do this because I need to do this, and I personally would not respect, I would not respect my husband if he was like you go do the work outside and I stay home, I can, because then I want that role. Like if you're going to say I'm going to bring money to the table, then he comes back I make the rules. I make the rules then, and not only that. No, and I don't like that, like, oh, I make the rules, or whatever, but it's like the idea that I'll, let's try this. I said honestly, there's just something not normal about that.
Speaker 4:There's just not like and a husband who's like I'll just stay home and I'll cook and you come home he's a heavy apron on and he's taking care of the kids. No, that's a turn off. That's a turn off. It's like oh, no, like yes if we both have to work out the side of the house, because then economy, all this, all that. But I need a man who wants to retire me at some point or who and who values me being home and he's not thinking about being the me, being the breadwinner and all this. This is just it, and I don't want to model that for my kids. I don't. I know my son has to understand like he knows. He's like dad pumps the gas or something's wrong with the car. He takes the mechanic, he does that. So you?
Speaker 3:coming with that conclusion. Is that from the Islamic point of view or from cultural point of view? Can you clarify that part?
Speaker 4:I would say it's 100% Islamic to me, because for me, culture has things I like and I don't like, and so for me, I think the most important thing is like, what does Allah say? And it has that, because here's the thing when you think about Islamically the child rearing, a big part of it is the mom and that's why, like in the part of providing Allah didn't put it on us and he made us, so he knows certain things about that, right? So let's say, you're like eight months pregnant, you're going to be outside, he's going to be home. Like no, like it doesn't make sense that he's going to be home and him to even fulfill the first like the nurture and all of that of like breastfeeding, all of that the first couple of years is just it doesn't.
Speaker 4:But I don't like this idea that, like a lot of people see me like, wow, I wish I was passionate about parenting. Who said I was passionate about parenting? Who said that I look passionate because I've I got to do it, because I've learned, I've put in my mind that this is my responsibility. So if I'm not maintaining my responsibility, I'm not going to do your job. I ain't doing my job. What am I going to do your job for yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think what has helped me is I was listening to something and the brother was talking about the triangle theory I don't know if you guys have heard of it Like having a loss of one data at the top and then one side of the corner is the wife and one side of the corner is the husband, and so the like, the more closer you get to a loss of one data, the more closer you two are together too.
Speaker 1:And it's really important how, when you bring up the responsibilities and roles, because fundamentally, when you say, like this is my role as a wife, this is my role as a husband, it really helps the dynamic, because it's clearly defined to like this is what you're responsible for A, b and C, and even if you like work outside the home or whatever, the responsibility does not fall off. And the husband, if he is more involved with the kids, the responsibility of providing does not fall off. So and it really helps the unit because, like, everything is clear and laid out and there's no confusion and the lines are not blurred. So I found that really helpful.
Speaker 4:But also the idea of like, I'm going back to, like husband being out. How many men would be like yeah, you go work and I'll stay. That's not even common. Yes, you know, most men would not be okay with like, wouldn't even dare have the idea of like oh, my wife's gonna work and I'm gonna be home. Yeah, no, they're not gonna do that. Yeah, and that's good. I'm gonna want to change that.
Speaker 2:I think I feel like I'm loving this conversation because I feel like I'm playing the devil's advocate.
Speaker 3:No, it's just good, I love it.
Speaker 2:Just because I'm going to say the F word right now and that guys probably are like, like I'm gonna take a get and I do consider myself a feminist right and not the extreme like throwing my bra, but the actual dictionary definition feminist which is, which is, give me the same opportunities as my male counterpart in the spaces of education, work and the space of rights right.
Speaker 2:Like when I'm talking about right, like governmental rights, so on and so forth. I don't deduct my pay based off of my gender. So that's my dictionary definition. I've walked from this before anybody comes for my neck. So, that being said, I also believe that when I have a daughter, and when I raise my kid, I want her to be able to know how to pump a gas.
Speaker 2:I want her to know how to change her tires, change her oil. I want her to know how to put furniture together, not because I want her to go find a person that can't do that, so she, it's an on her responsibility to do that. But I want their connection to be based off of their seeking of Allah, versus her dependence on him for him to do these things for her, if that makes sense. And then also, it's about the modeling aspect. Right, I want to model and, inshallah, may Allah help me with this. I want to model this for my daughter. Like look at your dad, look at me, right, look at your dad. He's providing for this family. He works out, he goes in reality, like my husband goes out and he goes to work. He provides for his family. He rather died than like not be able to provide for his family.
Speaker 2:Right, and look at me. I'm doing something that I love, that I am passionate about and that I feel important in right. Yes, I'm trying to be a good mom and a good wife and making sure I put Allah first and moving in the direction of Allah and making that my compass. So find a person that that's also their compass. Their compass is Allah. Their compass is trying to get Allah and, at the end of the day, I feel like if they fear Allah, if they have these simple requirements of being a God fearing person, a respectable person, someone that values and you and for who you are, then they are going to meet your needs. They're going to put you first. They're going to take care of their family. They're going to take care of their responsibility.
Speaker 2:Therefore, but what you have to focus on, not the fact that I don't know how to do these things. So, therefore, and my son, I'm going to teach him how to cook. I'm going to teach him how to clean his house. I'm going to teach him how to do all of the feminine things. Make sure you know how to organize your stuff. Make sure being in the kitchen shouldn't be a foreign concept to you. Feed yourself that's a necessity.
Speaker 4:I mean the Prophet SAW. He helped in the house, he did chores, he helped, he did, he was in the prime. Sometimes we can construe things, even just to just our own type of liking. Sometimes that happens, but okay. So to go back to like, okay, pumping gas, okay, if now your daughter grows up and she's with her husband, for example, would you be okay with you guys? They roll up, you're in the back or you're in the front seat because you're the mom, she's the best. But like you roll up to the gas station or she's driving or whatever, and then your wife or your daughter gets out of the car and your son-in-law stays in the car there's a tire that needs to be changed, okay, or gas needs to be and now he stays because you've taught your daughter and mashallah, she should know. But now she gets out and she does it Instead of him. Instead of him. That's an issue, okay.
Speaker 3:But then that's a feminine issue.
Speaker 4:But feminists I mean in West, if we think about equality and the feminist standard. They would consider your problem with that patriarch Like that's a patriarchal.
Speaker 2:No, that's why I say I'm a feminist in the dictionary definition. And even in the social construct of it right.
Speaker 2:So what I ask is what is rightfully mine? Challenge that a little bit. What do you mean? A dictionary? That's what I ask is what's rightfully mine. And I love I can never say her name, right Nitchi Mama, the Nigerian author. There's this one speech that she gave where literally I love, love, love, love, love, love that speech and that quote about being equals in the workplace with not with my husband being equals in the workplace If he's doing picking up rocks and running a marathon. Biologically we're different. You get to get whatever you want to be Right. I'm not going to pick up as many rocks as you are or carry as many rocks as you do, but brain to brain, I will be able to complete as much work as you do. I'll be able to defend a person. I'll be able to do a surgery as well, whatever right. So I don't think my gender should impact me in those senses in those instances.
Speaker 2:But then to go back to the guess pump situation, for me that's a character thing.
Speaker 4:Why is it character?
Speaker 2:Let me explain. I think when a person, when his wife is sitting down, it's shivery right, and then that there's a patriarchal aspect to shivery. There is, and I can, you can't have both of them, but you can, but you can.
Speaker 2:Living in the Western society is walking on a tightrope right, being able to hold on to your culture, your theme, and somehow still pick and choose from the Western culture. But they can call yourself a feminist then. But I do, because that if you talk to that woman, To talk about the condition of feminism, yeah. No, no, no. Okay, I think I see what you're saying, I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying. Pause, okay, what was your question? What were you saying? You were saying someone's not saying something.
Speaker 4:She was saying something Go ahead. No See, the thing is, man, I don't have a, you don't me. Yeah, the thing is, I remember going to my father-in-law. No, no, but the thing is that.
Speaker 3:That's why I think you two should sit down and have this conversation.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 3:The reason is being is that what you're saying is what you're saying? She used to say Literally 100%.
Speaker 4:Now no more. You're actually. Oh, I'm sure you know what this is. When I first got here, I remember getting married and you know my husband because from a very traditional I see household mashallah. His mom is just another level mashallah.
Speaker 4:But like I remember telling my father-in-law why don't you get her flowers? Like why don't you do this, why don't you do that? Like I was the girl that would be like if she gets you a cup of water, you're going to get her a cup of water as well. And I just saw this idea. But then it gets confusing because there are so many contradictions. There's so many If you sit down and you actually say there's a lot of contradictions, and then it gets really messy and the details get messy. But what I decided to do is say you know what? Skip everything. What does Islam say? And then, because Islam also includes, or feminism is a reaction to toxic masculinity and like oppression and all of that. And that's rightfully so. But I think what feminists missed is that they said women can be just like men, instead of saying what women do is just as important.
Speaker 4:Yes, rephrasing a following, because you never hear someone say oh. A man say oh, I could cook better if I wanted to.
Speaker 3:But if I want, to.
Speaker 4:They don't sit around saying they don't have insecurity with what is masculine. Because they were never told that they can't 100%, 100%. And so my thing is it wasn't the action, that was Tufi. You know, Maltutufatani, you know the Tufi was in the fem, in being feminine.
Speaker 4:So instead of saying you are just as special, and this goes back to Tuhid and wanting to teach my daughter like this world and my son. You're going to be so confused if you listen to things. You just have the idea of Tuhid and what Allah says, wal-muhminina, wal-muhminat, that there are like the value of a man and a woman. Inherently Is this completely the same, but the roles are different because the man is different and the woman is different.
Speaker 4:But the problem is we either have a culture that completely hate, like inaliened women, but they both hate women, to be honest, meaning feminine like the feminine they do Okay okay, okay, okay, okay. One culture says, oh, like, stay home and anyway, like, like it's downplaying the role of the woman, even though they can't make tea and they would die without the women. But the other end is like you know what you can do just as much as a man. Get out and do it.
Speaker 1:Right. But they don't say you can do just as much as a man. You, what you're doing is important. You say they tell you, go and do what he's doing, because what he's doing is important.
Speaker 4:Thank you, I'm sure. And actually that's textbook definition of feminist. If you look at the mother of one and I forgot her name and I'm glad I did, but she actually wrote it there's this second way feminism. She talked about how unit, or the household, is detrimental to women because it is making like the family. Unit is something very toxic, because it makes a woman have to forego her passion and her drive and all of that to raise children, and it was seen as something futile. So it's like now, as a Muslim woman, you come into this culture and you're like I want to be respected, I want to teach to my daughter and I want to show that women are just as valuable. Like there's this thing. But then how you go about it, it could be tricky if we don't do it, and guess what? The safety net is going to be Islam. What does Islam say about this? Khadija radi allah anha shihaad, she actually employed or she gave, you know, work to the Prophet. I said them, but at the end of the day, there is like differences.
Speaker 2:So yeah, Go ahead and answer your question. No, it wasn't a question. I was just going to make a statement.
Speaker 3:Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Here's the thing, and I think the reason why I have such a visceral reaction to people having an opposition to the word feminism right or feminist is because I didn't learn the theory and I didn't or the practice in the Western community, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I learned it and I felt it back home and my version and the way I grew up, the way I saw my parents do it, is completely an intertwining of like Dean is important, Dean is very important and what is prescribed for you by Allah as your roles is very much important. But then also culturally, I think my parents and the people around us, they didn't subscribe to the Oromo and the Ethiopian and African culture of putting women in the back burner. So my mom was very much important in the household and if we strip it down, if you actually take the word and take the reactions to the word and bring the word that I'm talking about and I because I feel like I get very uncomfortable when people talk about dominance and submissiveness and I think we've talked about this before, not because religiously the way it is prescribed, but because of how society and culture has morphed, and like hijacked those words, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I have this reaction to like I don't feel comfortable in these spaces. I don't feel comfortable in the space of like telling me I have to be at home and my instinct and my only passion should be maternal. Because it's not, and I would be lying if it is. I am maternal, I love my kids, like that's the most important hat I wear, and so on and so forth. But I have other things that I feel are important not as important but are important and I feel like the only space that word that I feel like acknowledges the importance of my secular passions is that if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I live in that two extremes of like. No, I don't belong to this misogynistic world where it's like women have to be submissive and obedient and all of that. And I don't belong to this like free the nipple movement of feminism.
Speaker 1:So it's like so I think, using that word, you're always going to have to qualify it and put like this is what I mean. Yeah, because when I think of it like there's so many connotations that I think of and I was like no, that's not me. You know, what I mean, don't you?
Speaker 2:think that you being a diaspora and being that, someone that brings money home and that has passion, and that you have desires to do things outside of the home. So mom and wife is not the only hats that you wear right, and the other hat is important to you. How wouldn't you say that you feel uncomfortable in the cultural expectations? Of women and like what we were prescribed culturally to be able to do and to behave as Right.
Speaker 1:But I do. The thing is like being in the diaspora. I feel like we have the luxury of picking and choosing, right Of saying this is what I like from my culture, this is what I like from the culture that I'm in and my culture back home, and you kind of come up with a hybrid. And then the other thing that I see I was saying is that kind of falling back on that Dean and I'm comfortable here and saying that yes, the guy is head of household and it doesn't.
Speaker 2:Can you guys define what that means for you guys?
Speaker 1:Okay, so for me, head of household is that being at the top of the family, so he can veto you, yes, 100% 100%, 100%.
Speaker 4:No okay, yeah, I've seen that. No, because very uncomfortable, but the thing is undoing a lot of undoing because, in the end of the day, allah Tawta put the responsibility like we're not going to be asked about our husbands on the day of judgment. You know we're not you and once or an aspect yes, but actually we are going to be asked about our children, but the responsibility on him is the house.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Like everybody and everyone it under. So like, if you go out today or do whatever and you, whatever, it goes to him, your sins are his sins, literally your sins are his sins. He can go. If he buys a house right now out of interest, that's on him, not on you at all.
Speaker 3:You don't even want that responsibility, you know. But I mean.
Speaker 4:So that means he has to have a degree of. Would you do?
Speaker 2:I guess I should say this, because there is not. Now I'm thinking a little bit more about it and I think we, in my relationship, we both have an aspect of a little bit of veto power. So let me ask do you guys debate it or is it like? No, because I said so?
Speaker 4:I grew up here I have to undo.
Speaker 2:I grew up and with the idea that having a head of a household is toxic in your household, like, let's say, for example, you have something that you want and he doesn't want you to do that, do you debate it and have a conversation?
Speaker 4:about it and like try to convince him. We have conversations now like, oh my God, can I do this? You?
Speaker 1:know, I get out of the house and I'm actually passionate.
Speaker 2:Putting your case front and be like this is something I want to do. And then he comes and he's like this is why I'm vetoing it.
Speaker 4:Yeah but we just know that in the end of that conversation it's pointless because he has veto power. No, that's not in the end of that conversation. We need to have an answer, and so sometimes it's going to be we agree. Sometimes it's going to be we disagree and I can convince him. Or sometimes it's going to be we just need a way forward, and in the end of the day, if he says, Nope, we are doing this, then I say you know what?
Speaker 2:Okay, Okay, okay, I can get behind that yeah.
Speaker 3:Three question for you guys before I can wrap it up. No, it's basically that advice that you have to give to other people, so it has to be three. Go ahead. Do you have any last minute that you want to add? I just have one question, you can talk to her outside of the house.
Speaker 3:Okay, I wanted to know. So, based on what you have talked about, about Montessori and raising your kids in a differently from how we are all raised what advice is would you give someone who's starting families now and that can apply to you guys too is, as a parent, both of you, all three of you, as our parents, what does?
Speaker 1:that thinking about.
Speaker 3:Huh, what to start thinking about. Thinking about what are something that you know now as a parent, that I wish somebody, you wish somebody, told you, and how you navigate around that.
Speaker 1:So basically, like looking back to when you were courting is that what you're saying? Looking back to when you're courting, what was one thing that you were shooting?
Speaker 3:Not even courting. Just as a parent now somebody's starting family, what would you advise them to? How to go about it?
Speaker 1:I would say just having patience and grace with each other and just having grace with yourself too, and knowing that, at the end of the day, you're a human being and you will mess things up. And because I feel like. For me, I'm always like am I doing right by my kids? Am I teaching them the right things? Am I modeling the right things? Am I making sure that I'm emphasizing things that are supposed to be emphasized? And I think a lot of sometimes you end up trying to do so many things and, like you know, you try to work outside the home, you try to pursue your passions, but then you're also trying to do right by your kids. So just take it, nobody's perfect right. And so just giving yourself that grace and that space to learn through your experiences and not expect yourself to be perfect in all hats that you wear, I would say so I'll answer both questions.
Speaker 2:In the dating or courtship moments, I feel like one should ask these questions ask parental how do you plan on disciplining your kids? How do you plan on rearing your kids? How do you plan on raising your kids? Who are the people that you respect that have raised that? You say have raised kids the best way that they know how to? What were the? You know someone.
Speaker 2:Having those conversations is very crucial because it helps you understand, because that is a make it or break it thing.
Speaker 2:If you're trying to marry someone that's like believes in capital punishment you know, I mean like, you know they mean like it and then you're talk to them very you know like it's just too extremes.
Speaker 2:So, making sure having to have that conversation and then, while you're married, like I've said, I said having mercy for yourself and for your partner, and then also while letting your for me and I learned this Very, very recently is that putting your ego outside and like making sure you that's hard, I'll learn, or that those things that you were, and being like, yeah, I mean I turned out okay, but that doesn't mean that's the right way to go about it and making sure you are okay with your kids, teaching you and paying attention to, like how they're responding and instead of saying my kid is just a yeller, my kid is just a hitter or my kid is Baleghe, right, why is this kid doing that? But analyzing and being introspective and seeing things and like why is my kid doing the things that they're doing? Where are they seeing it from? What are they responding to?
Speaker 4:I would say I think navigating just yourself in this world as hard, and I think, after years and years, years, years, years of just like a lot of things, what I would tell my younger self or someone who is just starting out is Alhamdulillah, we have something that many people don't. We have a light, which is the Quran and the Sunnah and the hadith and all this and Well, I like anytime I find something like astounding or really Like full of wisdom. There's always something like that, like a self-help book or whatever one I could beat all of it like. It's so concise, it's so beautiful and it's like, without that, if you're, you're gonna drown if you are Navigating it and you don't use what you have like.
Speaker 4:We have this tool called Islam and there's how to navigate yourself wifehood, family, business, children, all of that I would definitely say learn, get closer to Allah's fans out. That that would at least be something you can fall should be the main thing, but it'll always, always, always, always come through and so many ways, even if you think you can't understand the wisdom of it right away, and then you see it like 10 years later or something like that. So that's, that's what I would say, is my advice, the only concise, concise advice that anyone could give anybody else, because everything else will take hours of explanation or this or that, and it would just be too much. So it's just like just learn, learn, and I think that's how.
Speaker 3:I would end it last question I wanted to ask you guys how do you cultivate a community support system?
Speaker 4:Let's ask those that have already captivated a community. So, going back to like the practicality of this impossible thing that we set on ourselves Working, being a perfect mom, a perfect wife, then now showing up for a community, it's impossible, like I think we need to redefine what what community looks like and who's gonna show up, and I, starting from myself, I feel like I'm barely being able to show up in my own household. So then I know I'm failing as a community member. I know I am for my neighbor, I know there's people right now who need me. I can't show up the way that I want to show up because I haven't done my Groundwork, that foundation, something that I could, or it's time or this, or that or that. And so I think there's a huge need to cultivate especially sisterhood and community.
Speaker 4:If everyone's individually drowning, then who's gonna help you? Who's gonna help each other? Because we're all, and so we really need to talk about this is like what is our role? What does that look like? What is important? How do we categorize, how do we prioritize? Because if you're out there and you're like this community guru, but your neighbors have not heard from you, your mom is mad at you or your dad is not and you're not prioritizing, and your kids are, like you know, so it's like who puts it into perspective.
Speaker 1:It's like that concept of like putting your own life best on first and so like even I talk about this and he's like we as a unit have to be good first. You know before, like you look out and I think it's so hard to do and like you said, like if you really want to help others but you're drowning yourself, then you're gonna bring them and you guys are all gonna drown together.
Speaker 4:Then another question would be then are you chasing a mirage? Yeah, because when will you ever be ready? Because we'll get into this. But just this idea of superwoman, especially among women like us, women, of like I, can climb the ladder, come, be fit for my husband, be available for my husband, do all of the, fulfill him and he fulfills me, and then I go and be like a mom and then like that is just I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't know, but Later. Okay, so more on this conversation. I think you hit on a lot of good points of child upbringing and raising, really intentional Parenting styles, and this is only a part one. I feel like we need to really dig deep into this and kind of talk about like, because I feel like we threw around a lot of words but there's Definitions that everybody has that are different.
Speaker 3:I think you're talking about the roles, the parental roles, and who's gender, gender roles and who's in charge, and, kind of think, the responsibilities that Allah has on our husbands. Talking about that it should be.
Speaker 4:One episode is yeah and the reason I jumped to that is because sometimes if one person puts a brick and the other person takes it out, one person puts a brick, then there's is impossible. I would love to get more into, like monetary parenting, this, this, this, this, this. So, even though this seems off topic, it's not because it's at the core of that unit that's gonna establish everything else. So this is really good conversation and I'm glad that we kind of digressed a little bit and yeah.
Speaker 2:So I cannot tell you how I'm so excited for this episode, because I feel like there's a lot of people like me that have never heard of this type of parenting, and I think this was the answer that they were looking for. This was the kind of process. They didn't even look. Think about. The things that I am doing unconsciously or that are just part of my habits Are the things that my kids are gonna be picking up on, not the things that I'm lecturing them to. Yes, and For me it's like oh, I'm just gonna tell you to do this and I'm gonna tell you to do that. I'm gonna. I swear to God, I I was taking so many mental notes, so I just want to say thank you so much, because that's so important and I would have never known about this if I didn't get to have this conversation with you, so that was very important for me.
Speaker 4:I just want to acknowledge that yeah, no, thank you guys for having me on in this conversation and I think that a huge part of, I think, just my personality and if you know me, you know me is that, to a fault, like if I find Something, I'm gonna shout it out, so, and sometimes I'm like just finish first. But I think it's so important because it's not fun. The idea of I'm gonna raise my kids a certain way and then I don't need community is so Ridiculous because you can build this entire child who steps outside. You know this door and you'd you neglected your community, and then they influence your child and it's like, well, that's not, yeah, so thank you guys.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. It's been a such a great conversation and I appreciate all three of you for sharing. This is a difficult conversation. Until next time.
Speaker 2:Salamu alaykum.
Speaker 3:Salam alaykum.