Difficult Conversations
Difficult Conversations
Season Finale: Take-aways
As we wrap-up season two, we talk about what we have learned from our interviews with young men, young women, a married women, a married man, and our discussion on parenting.
We tackle the glaring disparity of expectations between genders, examining how societal norms and cultural influences often lead to the marginalization of single women. We also emphasize the desperate need for resources and constructive dialogues to help our youth build and sustain wholesome relationships.
Feeling undervalued is a common experience among many women due to the warped definition of masculinity that prizes financial stability over emotional maturity. As we turn the tables on this perspective, we dissect what it truly means to be a man - and no, it isn't just about the financials. We advocate for the pivotal role of emotional intelligence in building strong, fulfilling relationships, and stress the importance of mutual understanding and openness for growth.
Be prepared to be enlightened and inspired as we share our personal stories, learnings, and perspectives in hopes of sparking a positive transformation within our community. Don't miss out on this empowering conversation!
Visit our IG page at https://www.instagram.com/dc_overcoffee/ to join the conversation!
As-salamu alaikum, welcome to Difficult Conversations where we tackle taboo topics in a safe space through empowerment and education.
Speaker 2:So today we just want to do a season recap, seeing how what our favorites episodes are and what are something that stands out to all of us individually. This season we tackle a lot of conversation, families being single and what our families responsibilities and how culture play in love. Those episodes really hit for me really well because we talked about traditionally different part of automals and how we have different ideas and culture has played huge roles and different family members and expectations and how that contributes into courting and meeting people. But I do feel like there is a lot of work to do. The conversation was just a starter to bring an awareness for people who are in similar shoes, and I also want to talk about how much being single in 30s are such a taboo conversation for many women who are amazing and accomplishing in their fields and, at the same time, because they have done such a amount of healing work for themselves to understand what they're looking for in a partner.
Speaker 2:It became such a hard process for many of them and then I've noticed that it resonated for a lot of people that I know in my life as well that reached out to me in saying how they related to the episode of single and 33.
Speaker 2:It made them realize that they're not alone in their experiences, because I think within Oremo, and specifically Muslim Oremo community, I don't think we talk about the challenges of being in your 30s and still interested and desired to get married, and that door seemed to be very far fetched because of our cultural ideas and how people overlook you. You can be a doctor or a surgeon and be the most incredible person in your field, because culturally it's not really well accepted or talked about it or normalized around it. Girls or women who are amazing at what they do and they're like incredible personality, wise, beautiful people, and then they also appear to be struggling in this area and because society, in our society, we don't talk about it. I'm sure everybody who is married or families they have expectation and those expectations like you, should be married and have kids, and when you don't, you look at it a different way, and so I would say this season, touching on those topic was very engaging for me as a person and it's engaging for a lot of women who are in a similar situation as well, and I hope that's the conversation we'll continue to have. So, yeah, what about you, opshiro?
Speaker 1:I think one of the main things I took away from our whole season is just the lack of conversation.
Speaker 1:The lack of communication and the lack of just people being able to have space to talk about relationship issues, having somebody in their life just to say, hey, this is what I'm going through, and to be able to get constructive guidance and kind of roadmap as to where to go and what to do.
Speaker 1:The fact that there is no resources in the community, parents are not talking to their kids about it, and just the disparity between the guys and the girls how they were expected the woman to be ready for marriage and stuff like that, and the men to just have the financial aspect of it. What I took from our season and putting in all the work that we did is that, first of all, there's no, just the lack of communication around this topic, the fact that there is no resources in the community, parents are not talking to their kids about it, and just the disparity between the guys and the girls how they're like you said, bonnie, were expected the woman to be ready for marriage and stuff like that, and the men to just have the financial aspect of it.
Speaker 3:One of the many things that I learned this season and my take away from for this season is one the lack of resources for our youth to do the right thing, to go about the right way when approaching and pursuing relationships, the lack of communication, like Abshurah mentioned. In addition, I think one of the many things that I learned is that almost the I don't want to say crucifixion, but the crucifying of women for being single, as if that is a defining factor of their success or something we're not really given resources about. Like when we're kids, we're not really given resources about how to find the right guy, what the right guy means, how to communicate with the right guy. We're not allowed to go places where the right guy might be right. But all of a sudden we're expected Literally we have until you graduate, what 22, 23, and from 23 till 25, 27, you're expected to meet that person, get married, have a relationship, and then from 27 to 30, you have a leeway, you have that time to be able to do that, to have a career, to meet that person, to get married, and then by 30, you're like, oh, how could you not?
Speaker 3:All of a sudden, it's a big bad thing like that you're not married and you don't have. It's just, it's ridiculous. And still there's no mercy, there's no rahmat towards or like even the fact that people's choice of, hey, I don't prioritize this is not something that I prioritize. I don't prioritize being married. I don't feel like I'm missing out on something if, because I'm not married right now, I rather wait and find the right person instead of getting married to the wrong person and then having a miserable life, which is a valid choice. But people don't give them the opportunity to have that conversation or that moment. It's just we pity them or we ostracize, it's just so much.
Speaker 2:You're so right about ostracizing people, specifically single women in our community is big we don't do that to men.
Speaker 3:Exactly, we don't do that to men and it sucks and it's also. I'm sorry, I don't mean to cut you off, but it also comes from the fact that our community raises women to be marriage material but it doesn't spend a lot of time raising men to be marriage material and it talks to its young girls. Families talk to their young girls more in depth about what a wife is correct or not. Oh, you have to learn how to cook so that you could be a good wife. You have to learn how to clean so you could be a good wife. You have to be so.
Speaker 3:It's consistently drilled into our youth, our girls, that they have to do certain things to be good wives. But that's not the same thing for boys and they're not even. Oh, it's like a good thing, oh, okay. Oh, he decided to get married, mashallah, great. If they ever talk to them about like marriage, it's a joke. If you listen to the high school boys episode, it's a joke. Are you interested in somebody? Even the post college men that we talk to their parents, don't talk to them.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:They're like, they make jokes, they make references, they try to figure it out, but it's not something that they're perched with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's no time table for them either. And then another thing is that the ultimate success for the woman is marriage, not her career, not the differences that she's making the world, her producing children and being married is the ultimate success that a lot of parents has a dream. Yeah, you got a college degree big deal, right. Oh yeah, just a milestone, a small one. But if you get married now we're talking, and I think it's also traditionally I get where the parents are coming from too and I think it's great.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, how are you facilitating that right, instead of having so much expectation for your daughters to find that guy or that person or that girl is, how are you facilitating as a parent? What are you doing resource wise? How are you making the community as far as are you part of the community? Are you also talking to other parents who are seeking out to look in for a guy and then guys can marry a girl who are younger than them? If he's 30, he can marry a 22 year old girl. Like it's not even like passing by no issues, like everybody can. Oh yeah, he's 30 and she's 22. Okay, he can do that, but vice versa, that happens.
Speaker 3:The mom says the sisters of the guy. They're going to eat her alive. They're like why is he marrying to this old crow that's what it's gonna be. I'm just saying that's how it ends.
Speaker 1:I really wish that we had more of the male input on being very in depth about the issues that they were going through, because I think that we always talk about this, that the women we are doing the work, we are going to therapy and we are improving our lives, improving ourselves, we are going up in the educational realm and getting those degrees, but that's not necessarily the case for a lot of our brothers in our community.
Speaker 1:And then the women our sisters are left with. Do I have the painful choice of having to leave the community for a potential partner, having all of these degrees and finding somebody that cherishes me as a person and takes me with my degrees and with my accomplishments, without feeling less than without feeling inferior? So I wished we had space for our guys. I wished we had more resources for them and to teach them that it's not all about the money. It's not all about just having $20,000 and then you're ready to get married, having the money for the wedding, because what happens after that? What happens after you're married? Are you emotionally equipped to handle your wife? Are you a leader? Are you taking leadership classes so that, even if the sister is higher than you in education, are you man enough to hold her in her space? Are you man enough to give her that space to grow but also not feel inferior as well?
Speaker 3:If I could just add to that, I think the operational definition of what being a man means has to be more than just providing income to the family. Our community spends a lot of time emphasizing the income part, the money, the finance part, of being a man. Some of our men don't understand that your masculinity has nothing to do with what's in your pocket. Right, it's great that you can hold your own, it's great that you have finances, but what's more important is that is your masculinity so fragile that if your wife has more income than you, then it's not something that you are proud of or something that you have a healthy competition about, because healthy competition is good, right, not wanting to tear the other person down, but like, oh, my wife is doing this, she's making this much money, inshaallah, I have to work a little bit harder and meet her where she is. That's a different mentality than being like, oh, my wife is making this much, then I'm not a man, then she's emasculating me. But I think our whole season.
Speaker 1:I kept thinking that one of the episodes, bonnie, had said they don't know if they don't know something. You know what I mean. As women, like I said earlier, we've done the work.
Speaker 3:We have language to be like this is what it is, because when they think of being prepared for marriage, like you said, it's about preparing that 20K, preparing that money, having that finance. They don't think about their emotional intelligence. They don't think about their support system. They don't think about their masculinity and how fragile that might be, because we don't require them to yeah, because their parents have not required them to.
Speaker 2:Sometimes the girls, they don't know either, because how important that is for them until they're married. So in a prior of getting married, having those emotional intelligence conversations, they're like how does this person show up with me, how does he show up with his friends, how does he show up with his family? And how does that make me feel when I'm seeing how interact with other people? Is that something that husband should be having with his children? Because you can see a quality of traits of a person while they're functioning with other people, and I think that's another thing. Right, like, the older you get, the more you experience, the more you work on your healing journey, you understand the emotional intelligence, how important it is in order for you to have a very sustainable relationship.
Speaker 1:So then are we saying then to the sisters that are we telling them that you should look for somebody who has already have the emotional intelligence, already have the experience and stuff like that, because sometimes that takes years? Yeah, me personally, when I was trying to get married, honestly I didn't know any of this stuff Right, and I wasn't looking for somebody who was emotional, intelligent or this and this, because I'm me myself. I didn't know that until after marriage. Then you do some work and you're like you know what. This is really not what I want. I want you know A, b and C. So what are we saying at the root of? So?
Speaker 2:I think there's two things, right, you can say about that. One if you can find a man who is able to have that much of self awareness, amazing, right. But the biggest thing I would say is that a man who is willing to be open to work on himself in the process of self growth and elevation and their relationship that's open to, because I don't think everybody has the understanding. Even the girl herself might not understand if she's getting married at the age of 19 and he's 22. Right, they have to grow together, but they're able to be open to wanted to do those work, the classes that you mentioned, the training of understanding. If they can be open to do those work, Understanding, if they can do that together, they can go in a space that they can elevate together.
Speaker 1:But if one person is doing the work and the other person is not, it makes it really hard, then we have to put a disclaimer out there and say we're not saying only find this type of person and if they don't have A, b and C, then be like okay, he's not worth our time. Because I think in our community and outside of the Orem community we have this wokeness or whatever right that if he doesn't have A, b and C he's not worth their time. You know what I mean and I think that's very dangerous.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't believe in build a man. That's not me. But then I believe in the idea that, for example, I don't think I also had the addiction for emotional intelligence. So to be able to pinpoint, okay, this is what it is. If you told me what weaponizing and competence was, or asked me what weaponizing and competence was, I would say I didn't know five years ago, six years ago, whatever. But what I knew is what not necessarily the addiction, but what that would make me feel like Right. For example, I knew I wanted a man that wanted to grow, that wasn't intimidated by my growth. I wanted a man that would give me the space to be able to be 100% authentically myself all the time and that wouldn't impede him from being 100% authentically himself. I didn't know what that was, I didn't know that was called holding space, right, but I just knew that I needed that guy, I needed to have that conversation and then also having that big picture conversations and, I think, to go back to systemically right, our community system has systems to help our kids, our youth, be able to navigate the strain, to be able to have these questions already answered, to be able to ask these questions themselves.
Speaker 3:There are other communities that have the same expectations for their women and their men when it comes to marriage as we do, if you think about Muslim communities and Somali, arab, indian communities or whatever but the one thing that's different is that, for example, in the Indian community, there's this thing called bio data, where the arranged marriages are so normal that there are people that people go to arrange their marriage for them, that's their profession and this lady there's also a Netflix series about her that's called Indian Matricure, but she's not the only one, she's just one of the famous ones. Right, and you do the bio data about who you are, what you are, what you're interested in, and so on and so forth. Your parents take this or you take this to this lady and she finds people that have the same commonalities as you do. That's a resource. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:But we don't have any of those things. We don't have counseling classes for our community that are specific to our people. We don't have this training courses for our men. We don't have training courses for our women, for our youth. I feel like that should be taught. If our parents are not talking about it, if they don't feel comfortable to talk about it, they should take the youth to masjid where there's like a, and there should be right next to it, like a relationship course thing.
Speaker 1:I think that falls on us right, the generation that is educated, the generation that has done the work, or whatever. I feel like the onus is on us now to say, okay, first of all to demand it from our leaders and our masjid crews and say, hey, this is the resource that we need, or figure out and create our own resources.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think, stop making it a taboo, like I feel like, if you notice, I won't even the idea of asking going to the masjid and asking the shacks or the owners of this masjid to be like, hey, can you create this class? I'll be more than happy to give you my resources as a professional. I'd feel some type of way because they're going to be like oh, I feel like they're going to come from me. Remember, I'm sure you were telling us a story about is it the list?
Speaker 2:What was it?
Speaker 3:The community has completely made the whole topic a taboo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that you can't even create space and the funny thing is, during that we brought youth together and we're talking about how culture affects them. Nothing, relationship wise, nothing. We had like breakout sessions and stuff like that. But the whole community, the masjid crew, was like oh you know, you guys are bringing a jinnabes together, and how would people meet? Yeah, I don't know. All I know is we need a better system and we need to demand that. We need a better system because, while the masjids are fighting over who's leading and having a power trip, the community is suffering.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think also, the community needs to be open to the nuance that we're trying to bring, which is having resources that would be available and not being afraid of, like, reframing their thought process around. Okay, this is something that we know is a taboo at one point, but nothing is working. So I'm going to go to this event that's going to be a host by these people and I'm going to go check it out and I'm going to bring my friend and the boys has to do the same thing because, at the end of the day, like everybody's getting married in their 20s, I promise you a majority of them are getting divorced in their late 20s.
Speaker 3:But that's the problem. You say it's not a future, it's happening now Exactly.
Speaker 3:And people say that it's better to just get married than make Zinnat and stuff like that. But the thing is that's not the only two options. The two options is not to get married recklessly without having any prep work for the marriage or committing Zinnat. That's not the two options. There's a third option. You are too lazy or too uncomfortable or your culture is too close minded to investigate which is preparing the youth to be able to think of marriage as a goal, as something to achieve. That's great, that's good for them, but then at the same time, to prep them to get there and so that they can stay there for a long time. It's not cool to have two, three, four divorces before you're 40. It doesn't make sense. I know personally at least six people.
Speaker 3:I'm not a very social person, I don't have a very big social circle and I know six people that about more than six people that have gotten married so young and gotten divorced so young.
Speaker 1:And it's like and it hits the girls way worse than it does the guys Way worse yeah, it is, and it sucks, especially if you're a single mom in our community.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, that's worse than being single, that's worse than being single. They act like she just did it on her own. Yeah, exactly. Oh. And then the idea of our men being interested in a single mom if they don't have children of their own it's unheard of, yeah.
Speaker 1:And that breaks my heart, though. We need a cultural reframing and we need a shift.
Speaker 2:We do need a shift, which is why we're having this conversation, why we're having this podcast and discussing all the stuff that is taboo in the community and which is why we're having the difficult conversation that is really hard to have and which is why we're willing to create a resources, like Pani said, spaces where people can come and get to know what the challenges that they have, as well as trying to meet other people.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think we're doing that. Reforming, I think it's. The fact is that what I say earlier was that people in general in from the community needs to accept the nuance and being able to challenge their perspective of the taboo thinking, and this is what we're going to do now and this is what has to be the new faces, but not being able to have reservation around it, trying to provide for the community. As far as resource concern, we need a lot more support from the community to say you know what? This is one area that our generation that's going to be born in America is going to need, so we should encourage this, we should allow them to listen to it.
Speaker 1:And we also need people that are professional in the professional scene more therapists, more social workers to get involved and say, ok, this is one little thing that I can do to help expand and give back to the community, because I think, as almost we get in this mindset of me and so or that's too much work to do or that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm too busy with my life that is so hard already I have no capacity for something else that is going to be affecting us featurely, which is the features already here, actually.
Speaker 1:But I think, as professionals, we need to think a little bit differently and say OK, if I give back to the community, this is going to not only support only the community, but me as well, because you are thinking of having kids, you are thinking of getting married. Why not provide this service that it's going to help the community and also your children as well?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think also for the Oromo leaders not necessarily just Muslim or leaders, but Oromo leaders to be active, because this is not just a Muslim or a issue, this is an Oromo community issue. So to get involved, to be able to do things and create opportunities as such, so that our community, regardless if it's Muslim or not, could have these resources, because everyone can benefit from them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, but this has been our season of learning about ourselves, about the community, about youth experiences in this area and understanding around it.
Speaker 3:I was just going to ask how about? You said that you learned a little bit about each of us during this season. What is one thing you guys learned about each other?
Speaker 2:I learned that I think we have very different personalities and our personality works well together. I learned that, bonnie, your journey, as in coming from a disraise with incredible parents, the things that they taught you as a person, and being the amazing, incredible young woman that you are today the credit card goes to them and obviously Allah too, but Allah is the one that made you, so the credit goes to them. And I learned that Abshidol is very shy but at the same time her shyness comes out with her generosity and love, and that is.
Speaker 2:Her sass and her sass. That is very.
Speaker 3:Really, so it comes out. Yes, so it's been an incredible experience.
Speaker 2:I mean people are like that's good oh okay, I guess we actually would like that.
Speaker 1:Yay, we're prouled right we get this side of it. The timid one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the wall Abshidol your turn. I think what I learned about us is just realizing, like the how I said, that everybody has a different personality, has a different life story, has a different experience, and I think it has allowed us allowed me personally to give each other some grace and learning where Bonnie's go getter mentality comes from, where the obvious reserve thoughtfulness comes from too, and just realizing that, like whenever and I don't know it has helped me in improving my interaction with you guys and, like I said earlier, just giving, learning to give each other grace.
Speaker 3:I laughed because Nianne Abshur had a conversation at the spoon pool on Thursday and she was telling me to have grace and I was telling her that I'm learning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was telling her. Sometimes I just want to hold you, bonnie, and just shake you vigorously and violence.
Speaker 3:See, can you add violent to her list of things? No, I have learned. I feel like this season specifically, I have learned that people have different modes of working, modes of speeds. I know this sounds silly, but people have different. Like all of us could be looking at one thing and then completely understanding or seeing three different things. And my instinctual operating system is very much I'm moving and I'm assuming that everybody's seeing what I'm seeing, not everybody's seeing something different. So I have to stop, pause and then be like okay, what are you guys seeing? So that we can all talk about what we're seeing. And then I've also from season one. I feel like what I've learned is that I'm taking a little bit of grace, learning about grace, learning about patience from the Habbe, learning about grace from Obshoro, learning it's not just the podcast and materials that we put out there, but as a self-development. I think I've been milking off of my co-hosts and their personalities a little bit.
Speaker 1:And I think the thing is that too, like when you're working on a project with other people, you have to like them if you're going to keep working on it. Like we've all had school projects where you're just like I'm so glad this is only for one semester and I don't see these idiots, but I'm happy to say that I'm doing it with you guys. I'm glad I'm doing it with you guys. They have been moments where it's just oh my gosh, but then they've been amazing moments as well. So, and I think a lot of people don't realize the work behind the scenes that it takes to produce a podcast and to just doing it by ourselves, without professional editors, without professional marketers. So I really appreciate all of you, both of you and hopefully, inshallah, we are moving on to bigger and better things next season, inshallah.
Speaker 3:We appreciate you too, sometimes, okay, hahaha.
Speaker 1:Join the conversation in the comments section or on our Instagram page to share with us what you think. We do not have all the answers, and our biggest goal is to kick off and get the conversation going. May Allah SWT accept our efforts and use us as catalysts for change.