Difficult Conversations
Difficult Conversations
Family and Forgiveness
Family dynamics are like fingerprints—unique and sometimes, complex beyond words. Join us as we talk about forgiveness and how it can sometimes be hard to navigate with people closest to us.
We'll explore practical strategies for dealing with challenging interpersonal dynamics, and reveal how forgiveness, can be a vehicle for profound change. Drawing on personal experiences and the wisdom gleaned from cultural understandings, this episode is an invitation to consider forgiveness as a gateway to a lighter, more peaceful existence.
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As-salamu alaikum, welcome to Difficult Conversations where we tackle taboo topics in a safe space through empowerment and education. The information on this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional. Mental health advice.
Speaker 2:So today our conversation is going to be focusing on why is forgiving so hard related to family, and so I just want to talk about that a little bit and before we can, kind of you know, get your ladies thoughts on what that means. And for you, I feel like forgiveness is one of those things that I don't think any of us similar to communication. It was never been taught to us how to forgive, how to communicate, how to talk about difficult stuff and even how to do a conflict resolution in relationships, like if something had affected you. How do you talk to that person saying, hey, when you did X, y and Z, this is how this hurt me, and I think forgiveness is part of that. And so I feel all of us have a way of like, whether it's our trauma, whether it's our childhood, whether it is just even in friendship, at work, whatever environment that you may be in, forgiveness is part of that.
Speaker 2:And I think the other aspect of forgiveness is that we don't always forgive for the sake of other people. We feel we forgive for the sake of ourselves, because when you're not forgiving yourself in the situation that happened to you, you kind of holding onto that person and the impact that that person had on you, and I sometimes wonder this is probably the question for all of you guys have you guys been in a space where you wanted to forgive the person but your ego would not allow you to do so, because you're holding on to like the impact or the things that they said to you and how often they said to you and how that's related to you. So, if you would love, please share examples and situations or memories, even related to like friends or family or work any situation, because I feel like forgiveness is not really talked about as much as we want to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean for me, another part of forgiveness that I'm just realizing, the year of 2023 is that most of the time when we think of forgiveness and when we talk about forgiveness, we think about understanding and then forgiving, or we need, we think about, like accountability followed by forgiveness, like there needs to be some sort of accountability taken by the person, the perpetrator, for us to forgive them. Or and that's not necessarily- true.
Speaker 3:And I learned this actually very recently when I was having a conversation with this one specific person in my life that for years have had a hard, hard time letting go and hard time forgiving, because they never sought my forgiveness, they don't think that they did anything wrong. So I was like, if you don't want it, I'm not going to give it to you. If you don't think you even did anything, then I'm not going to give it to you. And I realized, and then also I was always having a hard time understanding why they did what they did Right. So I'm like I don't get it.
Speaker 3:And now I see you moving differently and I don't understand why you don't understand what you did was wrong, you know.
Speaker 3:So the last couple of months I kind of have gotten into that space where I think I saw it in a movie when you understand someone, they stop being your enemy, like when you understand why they did what they did or why they feel like what they did was right.
Speaker 3:Not that it's justifying it, but like, for example, in our community, our parents, they tend to say things off the cuff and never really feel the need to apologize for it, or they might do things that like, let's say, for example, spanking right, they might spank their kids and you're like, oh, I don't understand why you spanked me when I was a kid or whatever. I'm just using random ideas. And then understanding that they were spanked as a kid and they were insulted as children and they just took it as part of discipline, helps you understand why they did it to you. Does that make sense? It doesn't justify that they did it to you, but it helps you understand why they did it to you. That way, you're, even though they don't think they did anything wrong, even though they never come asking for forgiveness, you're able to forgive them.
Speaker 4:So have you decided that this person doesn't necessarily need to take accountability for you to forgive them?
Speaker 3:Yeah, because expecting accountability from someone is like I can't wait for you to heal, for me to heal. I can't wait for you to like. You know, because accountability comes from healing, comes from growth. Right, like if that person is growing, they will look back and they say, okay, I understand that I did such and such and I could have moved such and such way, but if they're not willing to grow or if they have too much of an ego, I can't let that hold me back for my own growth and my own healing journey.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, that's really hard to do and so much easier to say, because I think in my situation, in my life, you know, there are certain people that you might feel like have wronged you or have, you know, treated you unfairly. But I feel like it's not all in my head, but it kind of is. You know, it's like it's how I feel towards this situation. It's not necessarily, it's not necessary that this person, like you said, thinks that they did anything wrong to you, but I have decided to take accountability for myself and start that conversation and say, hey, you know, you did such and such to me and I feel like that wasn't right or I felt some type of way I think that's my responsibility to do, because that person, you know, is going about their day enjoying their life, not knowing that I am holding such a so much baggage, you know and resumfulness about the situation.
Speaker 1:Can.
Speaker 4:I ask you a question. Yeah, that's okay.
Speaker 3:So like, let's say, for example, you have that conversation with this person, yeah, and then they, what? What do you? It is the conversation, like starting the conversation and having that conversation. Is that the part that you need? Or, like, do you need them to say okay, like first to hear you out, right, To let you say your piece, and then, second, do you need them to like acknowledge what happened? Because the reality of the situation is that in most Oremo families is that you feel like you're crazy Because they're like it didn't happen this way. What are you talking about? I was like you know, like you're exaggerating.
Speaker 1:And gaslighting yeah, definitely gaslighting.
Speaker 3:So like you would be talking about an event that you were there, that person was there and you guys will be seeing it completely differently. So first you have to come into the same reality and like this is what actually took place.
Speaker 4:I think so for me, not necessarily getting them to believe exactly how I see things, but at least hearing me out, you know, and saying, okay, this is how I saw it, and I'm like I never try to, I'm not one of those people that like tried to convince people of my reality because that's mine, right, I own it, and I know that I go through life in my point of view, right, and so you, bonnie, you will never see that situation exactly how I'm seeing it, right.
Speaker 4:So, but so I always say, like I'd rather be wrong than have me wrong somebody. So this year I'm trying to at least tell the person, say, hey, this is the situation, this is what happened, and a lot of times you know the few situations that has happened we, you might have the conversation and then maybe, like you know, six months later or whatever, you might think that this situation has been resolved, or, like you guys came on at the same conclusion. That necessarily is not the case as well, right, and so you just have to make sure that you've done your part, you've initiated, you've said, okay, this is how this has hurt me, and then, whatever they do, that's up to them.
Speaker 3:Right, I feel like that comes with the power dynamic, though. Like for me, like even you talking about, I'm going to tell them this thing, Like if it's a parent or if it's someone that like older and that has some sort of like that has had some sort of power over you. It's so hard to imagine that conversation of you sitting that like can you imagine sitting your mom down or like your dad down and being like, yeah, let's talk about that's different, that's different, that's anxiety-inducing?
Speaker 2:I think that's different. I think one of the something that I think one of you guys just said right now that resonated with me is that the idea of memory. Right, memory is not a fact. Right, there is a selective of memory. There's a memory that you remember accurately the way it had affected you, and there's a memory that you suppressed and you kind of avoided and forgot about it until somebody or some things happened to trigger you that. And then in our community, what happens is that memory is a fact.
Speaker 2:It's like when you said this happened to me X, y and Z way, they will say no, that didn't happen. And is it, for example Because there's only one truth, exactly, and theirs and theirs. And, for example, imagine being a parent being raised with your siblings, right, and you were sharing stories about what happened to you as a child, and your siblings comes to you saying that's not what happened. Yeah, for you it happened this way. And if you tell them that's what happened to me and it doesn't negate their experience, right, but this is your experience they count it as an offensive. It's like you made that up, like you are lying. No, I mean honestly.
Speaker 3:This is cause you just said that I had a conversation with my little sister and that's when I realized like memory is a lie, like it's a complete lie, it's constructive. It's constructive Because we take concepts of like, or our brain is like so interesting, like there's conversations where she you know, she came from back home when she was very, very young, like she went to second grade here, so that young. And when we talk about back home, she'll be like I was there and I did this with you guys, and I'll be like no, you weren't, you were never there. And like we have these arguments and then at one point she had convinced me that she was there and she went on this trip with my aunt and so on and so forth. And then there are multiple people that told me now, like, after like years of believing that it was her that went, that apparently was me that went to this trip and that got lost.
Speaker 2:So she's telling you, as it happened to her, yes, and you are saying this happened to me, not you. No, no, no.
Speaker 1:I omitted that it was me and I just placed her into the plane, cause she's told you Multiple times Okay, so you believed it then yeah, so like imagine I'm older than her, yeah, so I'm like, okay, cool, it was her.
Speaker 3:So this whole time we're telling other people cause this epic story of like three two adults and one child getting lost in Ethiopia, and like it's an awesome story. So like we're telling this story to other people Like it's her right. And then the people that one other adult that was there and then the people that kind of found them when we found them here and we talked about this you remember this day and other stuff and they're like what are you talking about? Imo wasn't even born. I was like what Exactly?
Speaker 4:It was you. Yeah, I think I want to go back to like certain people in our lives that you just can't broach that topic of forgiveness with, and like for me personally, that is my parents. Like I've decided that you know I'm the child you know and they're the parent you know, and I think, because of parental rights in Islam, and like I feel like you kind of have to walk a fine line because, say, I felt a certain way right, I felt some type of way towards my mom and in a situation or something, and knowing my mom's personality, knowing you know like how she would take certain things, I will never bring that topic to her right. I will never say, mom, like you know you did me wrong, or like you did this in this situation and I felt some type of way about it because it's not gonna receive, it's not gonna be you receive dwell you know, and so it might even be like re-traumatizing.
Speaker 4:Yeah, re-traumatizing, and I know she's gonna like fill in the blanks of her own stories and stuff like that. And I know, you know, she's had a hard life and it's a lot of the times it's her trauma speaking, you know, and just even certain comments and stuff like that. So I personally decided to not engage in certain conversations with her in certain situations but, like my siblings, people who I feel like I'm able to be like, approach them and they're approachable 100%.
Speaker 2:So I have something to say about that as a therapist. As a therapist, one of the things that I always tell my client is talking about especially coming from immigrant background and being a Muslim individuals. Talking about your experiences does not negate the respect and the love that you have for your parents. Talking about the impact that experience had on you does not minimize or kind of put your parents as a bad evil things. It's not. It's just the idea of you naming the experience that happened to you, owning up to that truth and finding a fine line between that healing through it. Once you heal through it, that's where your forgiveness starts, because you still have to learn to know that that individual does not have the emotional capacity, empathy capacity, to tap into, regulate themself, to accept what you would tell them saying you did X, y and Z to me when I was five years old. They're not gonna have the emotional capacity to say I am so sorry, my child, that's what I put you through and that only happened for a person who did their own healing work to recognize hey, I know I was not a good parents to you and I wanna apologize for the way I showed up, not excusing it, just validating and taking accountability to that process. And so sometimes what my clients do in therapy is that they become very protective of their family. Right, I hear it and I see it, and I see even in their body language, where they're like shifting on the couch, like trying to express what.
Speaker 2:And the first thing I always say I am not, I respect. I'm sure you love your parents. I'm sure you care deeply for them. I'm sure you understand their emotional trauma. I'm sure you understand their struggles and how they meet you and I'm sure that you understand it wasn't easy for them too.
Speaker 2:We have to validate that, but we also also have to validate your experience in the midst of it. So that being saying two things can be true at the same time your experience can be true and their experience and their struggle can be true. So there's no shame of saying I'm gonna cut off my parents. That's not what we do, right? And now coming back to the question that you brought about Islam, is that I wanna caution. Back to you guys how do you identify the idea of forgiveness when it comes to religion and that kind of sometimes weaponize a little bit more, saying like you have to forgive your parents, you have to forgive your family. You're not allowed to cut off your family. There is that aspect of it and where is the middle ground and how are we supposed to maneuver that?
Speaker 4:I think there's the general rule right, the general rule of keeping family ties, making sure that you're keeping up with your extended family or your immediate family Because, at the end of the day, they do have Islamic rights on you in terms of, like I said, keeping up with them and stuff like that. But you also have to realize that there are certain situations where it might not be kheir or it might not be good for you to keep those ties. You know, and I don't remember the exact situations, but there's, like I think, four situations or something where, like you know, if you decide to break the ties or if you decide to not keep up with this person, there's no like dumb on you for it or there's no sign on you for it.
Speaker 3:I actually have been like listening to a lot of lectures about this specific topic because and the consensus that I've gotten from these lectures is that there's it doesn't have to be black and white, like it's not break ties or keep them in your life. There is a middle ground. There is a safe, healthy ground where you can keep you, can, you know, maintain your or you can do right by them while doing right by yourself. So if this person is toxic in your life, if this person consistently is bringing anxiety and and negativity into your world, then it is your responsibility to protect yourself from that person. That might not necessarily be cutting them all the way off, but it might be putting up boundaries that protect you and that protect them. So, if that person might be someone that is like, shoots off their mouth, right, and says things that are hurtful to you and normally people like that in our community they do that in private, like they don't do that in public right. So hang out with them in public, hang out with them in a space that is like that prevents them from doing the thing that hurts you, right, and keep like, if they do that in long conversations, keep the conversation short, you know?
Speaker 3:Hey, I said I'm going to come. How are you? Good, good, family good. Okay, my check in for today is over Class, you know like.
Speaker 3:I mean don't say that like and then move on and being able to be there as much as you can, but then, at the same time, if it's someone that tends to use you, put a boundary up, being like, okay, this is how much and as much as I can do for this month or this year and after that I can't, and putting that like on you and letting them know so that they don't cross that. So that's what it is. It's not always black and white, it's not. It doesn't have to be so hardcore. But then, at the same time, there are other things where it needs to be cutthroat, like you need to be able to say, okay, having this person in my life is detrimental to me and I will forgive you, I'll let you do. You over there, keep your cloud and your rain and your negative and I love you from a distance.
Speaker 4:But I also think that you know it's it's good practice and habit just to have like a general trait of like practicing forgiveness and kind of trying to overlook people's faults and personality traits and stuff like that. Because I think I don't think we should be like cutthroat and rigid about it. You know, say somebody has like a bad habit or whatever, or something like that. I think if it's not negatively, like affecting you too much, I don't think you should be like okay, this person does x, y and z cutoff.
Speaker 4:You know, what I mean. I think we need to foster a trait of forgiveness and kind of overlooking things for people in general, as a general rule, I know I do agree. You know, if you forgive people, then a lost man's idol will forgive you.
Speaker 2:I do agree, and I think it takes a lot. Of the things that we talk about is for you to recognize your own level of boundaries, and there is like two aspects of boundaries that I always talk about is there's internal boundaries and then external boundaries. Internal boundaries for you to kind of say, this is what I can able to handle, and then this is what I can allow people to be in this space as an external aspect of it. So, for example, for internal boundaries, it's like I might not want to have conversation with people at nine o'clock at night. Right, if I'm going to have very difficult conversation, it has to be at noon, when I have my coffee, food is in my stomach, and then to do it in a safe space where I feel like I'm not in a very like anxiety-orientated space, right, that's your internal boundaries. You're again your other boundaries.
Speaker 2:Your external boundaries with that individual is like okay, how often can I talk to them? If I see their phone calls, if they're calling me, am I going to be answering their phone call every single time, or do I need to say sometime okay, I see it, I'm going to answer it when I'm ready, and that can happen both internal and external boundaries with that person, when you decided to recognize okay, I'm going to have this person in my life regardless, right, but then to do that I need to do something else, to kind of protect myself, to still figure out how I can maneuver in these relationships. Right, because in our religion, in our culture, it's not that often people cut each other off. How, like really cold turkey.
Speaker 4:Well, you're not supposed to. They say you're not supposed to, but I think you should do it in some aspect of it.
Speaker 2:I think that's up to individuals' choices to do that and their comfortability, but I think it's also we are not meant to be by ourselves. We can't constantly like you did this, I can't talk to you. Do you did that, I can't. You're going to be alone at the end of it. So you have to figure out what's causing you and be able to communicate that.
Speaker 4:And I think it goes back to like the overall idea of community, right, and like where we're. It's like it's not an individualistic society, right? I think the Islamic world view is not. It's geared towards community right Gird towards doing things for others and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Yes and exactly. And to kind of contribute to that, it's like okay, how do I maneuver in these conversations?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I also want to just add two things. When I was listening to you guys, I there's this show. It's called Ivana Fixed my Life or something like that. It's on own Yolana Yolana Fixed my Life. Something like that Something like that.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I bet you're in her name. I don't know.
Speaker 3:Someone.
Speaker 1:Fixed my Life.
Speaker 3:And when, before the show started, she was on, actually, wow, this was see. Mindbind is awesome. This is like 10 years ago when Oprah did her 25 years and last episodes and this lady came in and she said when you give someone, that's something that you don't have you make them a thief.
Speaker 3:So basically, even though you're giving that person and you're giving them something that you don't have, you make them a thief, meaning that if you are consistently like in a space that's of default of like and that person is coming in and like, maybe sometimes they are saying things that is in their nature, like Abshura said. You know, just to use that example, like you know, your mom has gone through a lot.
Speaker 3:She says things out of trauma and she doesn't know how much it hurts you right and you can't tell her like stop saying that or you know, these things hurt me because you, that will exasperate the situation or make you retraumatized. So by her not knowing and by her not knowing and I'm not saying you, but the you example, by that person not knowing what they're doing and the other person not telling them or putting up boundaries to stop them from doing what they're doing, they make them a thief or they make them the villain that they are in their story.
Speaker 3:Does that make sense? Because they haven't established anything. They haven't established anything. So to protect that relationship, to protect yourself and to protect that person from being something, from being a character in your story in a negative way, you put up boundaries and you put up boundaries, you put up circumstances. And one thing I learned in the last couple of months, actually in therapy, is the different levels of boundary right. Certain situations require rigorous, rough boundaries that are like red lines in the sand cannot cross, and some situations require porous boundaries where, depending on the situation, like you can move the line, you can move the goalpost, and then some, in most cases, in all, you should have a healthy boundary that is stable, standard status quo. That everybody knows is the what's up, and having those things keeps the balance in your life.
Speaker 3:And then I also wanna speak to those people that are currently kind of dealing with people that they can't address, they can't forgive. They are in that space of like. This person has done too much to me that I forgiveness is not even in their area code of what I'm feeling. I'm in anger, I'm in, you know, whatever the case is, I'm in depression, I'm in sadness. I want you to understand that forgiveness. I know it's a cliche word, it's not for them, it's for you. But then, at the same time, forgiving them doesn't absolve them of everything that they did to you.
Speaker 3:It doesn't make it right, it doesn't make it okay. It doesn't mean that they got away with it.
Speaker 3:Cause that's one thing that, for me, I had to deal with is that I won't forgive them, so they don't get away with what they did, right? If I hate you, if I'm like blaming you all the time and if I'm angry at you all the time, and if I'm, then you will know you're off the hook. No, you will know you're not off the hook, right? If I don't forgive you. But then if I forgive you, you're off the hook. If I forgive you, nobody's holding you accountable, but it's actually your verse. It's your verse and it's not your responsibility to hold them accountable. It's between them and Allah, and Allah is the best at justice right.
Speaker 4:So, and I think, like, for like, really, really hard situations where you feel like you know they're your family member, you wanna keep this relationship alive, I would say, bring in a third party. You know somebody that you trust and that person trusts to say what is the situation and talk through it. You know somebody that's able to hold that space for both of you. And I think that has really taught me that when you do hold these conversations and kind of have everything out in the open, you feel so much lighter because it's not taking up so much real estate in your mind. That, okay, and the thing I don't know if you guys do this, but I'm constantly thinking about it, Like, I'm like, and then I'll have conversations in my head with that person.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, practicing the pre-test, yes, yep.
Speaker 4:And so I'll be like, okay, next time I'll say listen, listen, listen. But then when you get there, you're like yeah, when I get there, it's like oh, like all of a sudden I lost. You know, I'm mute, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think with that, when bringing a mediator in, that I really wanted to stress for some people that's not even an option. For some people it may be right, I know. We wanted to kind of find a middle ground for all of it, and I recognize I've been with people that that was not an option because even they're the mediations people, they don't even know how to deal with that. So instead, what did they do is like oh, it's your family, just forgive them. It's your husband, just forgive him. Because even though the I think it depends on who is the mediator.
Speaker 4:They'll be like yeah.
Speaker 2:That's true, that's what I'm saying. Especially it is that's what I'm saying. There's two right, there's aspect of like. We want the middle of finding the right, proper mediation right, somebody who has emotional intelligence to be able to navigate that. But then sometimes we don't.
Speaker 4:People don't think about that and who doesn't have anything at stake.
Speaker 2:Yes, people don't think about that. When they're looking at mediation, they're like, oh, we need to have a requirement and they should be this, this, this, before they can mediate the situation. I don't think about that. They're like well, they're the oldest, so they could mediate.
Speaker 3:But also at the same time you have to understand that the other person might feel like bringing in a mediator might be putting your laundry out there if that person is not in the family. So you have to navigate that too, Like, oh you're gonna, are you Even with a mediator? That's another. I'm not bringing in a solution, I'm just bringing in a problem right now.
Speaker 3:You bring a mediator. Are you gonna even be able to feel, are you in that space to be able to feel comfortable to say things the way they are, in the way? Or are you gonna be like, unconsciously or consciously, sugarcoating things because we have been so ingrained into not letting things in the family, or even in too different to family and to personal Relationships, come out and we talk, oh so but I feel like, as in the community, as an oromo community, I feel like we do have a tradition of bringing mediators in, but it's just.
Speaker 2:For marriage Family not for family.
Speaker 4:They're like certain situations like, for example, what a jarole you know? Yeah, they come, and Most of the time it's for married issues. Yeah, but even if like say, you know like somebody borrowed $10,000 from you or whatever, yeah and then they never paid you back. There are people in the community you can be like hey, this is the situation like a court. Yeah, you know, we have that we have, we do yeah. I don't. It's just that sometimes even these people that are quote-unquote trying to mediate Is yeah, there's a lot of genuine Genuine.
Speaker 2:This that's a very high level bias, biases. Yeah, I do want it to kind of Finish up, wrap up with this forgiving For our audience to kind of benefit of forgiving. Right, I wanted to kind of leave on that. So some of the benefit of forgiving is having healthy relationship, better mental health, reducing anxiety and stress, and healthy House, you know, wholesome environment and a few symptoms of depression and lowering your blood pressure and a strong immune system, improving health care as well, just physical health, and then also improving self-esteem. So this is the benefit of forgiving and I just wanted to kind of the audience to listen to the fact.
Speaker 3:It's like what areas of your life does not forgiving someone is kind of hold, it's hijacking for you and you do like you do yourself a service by forgiving people, because you're not like, you're not breaking your back, holding on to like all of this Baggage and once you do actually forgive, you feel so much lighter, yeah, and you're just like like I'm the line or whatever they do is on them, but I've made peace with it, I've worked through it and and Carlos, and one thing I will also say is, before forgiveness, I think, taking inventory of what happened From your end, because sometimes, also looking at things, that the way you played the situation, the way like, oh, I, I moved like this, you know it's not always, you know it's easy to point the finger on that other person and me like you know, this person did this, this, this, that the other and then being like I feel like making sure you take inventory of the whole thing From birds I view, so that when you start paying attention to the little mistakes, the little moves that you might have made, that are Also responsible for the situation that you guys are in now, then you will have your heart starts opening up to have.
Speaker 3:When you have Rahmat for yourself, you will have Rahmat for the other person. When you start forgiving yourself for the little mistakes that you made, then you will be able to to forgive that other person for the little mistakes that they made as well.
Speaker 4:Just know that, though, like they are people that, no matter what you do, they will never take accountability and they will never. They will never be like, okay, what did I do in this situation? Yeah, and honestly, with people like that, you just have to Just leave it as is. Yeah, it's not, it's like it's never gonna get better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, accountability is not the precursor to forgiveness. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much, ladies. This has been an incredible conversation. Welcome to, I guess, difficult conversation.
Speaker 1:So I'm a like you're welcome, so I'm join the conversation in the comment section or on our social media pages. We do not have all the answers and our biggest goal is to kick off the conversation and get it started. May Allah SWT accept our efforts and use this for catalysts of change.