Difficult Conversations
Difficult Conversations
Rethinking Grief
Our discussion dives into the complexities of grieving within our community, exploring how cultural expectations shape expressions of loss and feelings of isolation. We share personal stories of bereavement and the importance of sustaining support for the long-term healing journey that follows.
• Exploring the weight of loneliness in grief
• The role of cultural practices in mourning
• Importance of checking in post-funeral
• Understanding varying expressions of grief
• The psychological impact of loss on individuals
• Practical suggestions for supporting the grieving
• Rethinking community roles in grief support
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As-salamu alaykum, welcome to Difficult Conversations where we tackle taboo topics in a safe space through empowerment and education. As-salamu alaykum everybody, welcome back to another amazing episode. So on this episode we, just as a disclaimer, we're going to be talking a lot about a really heavy topic of bereavement and there's just been a lot of stuff going on in our community a lot of deaths amongst youth, older people and we wanted to just take some time to kind of explore this topic and we've been asking around about with family and friends. It's just been a really heavy time and a lot of people are processing it in a lot of different ways. I talked to one of my really close friends and she had shared with what that process of grieving was like for her because she had lost her parents really young. She lost both her parents in the span of a six-month period and you know when she when I read what she had wrote me and it was really moving and I think I haven't really saw grief or somebody processing it in this way and I wanted to share just the last couple of paragraphs that she had shared. So she said the flood of people that had taken over our home for the past week, holding back. All grief had to offer had all left us behind. The house was emptied For everyone else. It was business as usual. After the three-day funeral procession they came, they paid their respects and they left.
Speaker 1:The weeks following my mother's death we were filled with a lot of firsts. My uncles, who were in their early 20s, were suddenly parents to two young girls and I, at 10 years old, was the woman of the house. For the first time in my life. I was responsible for the groceries list. For the first time in my uncle's life, he was responsible for shopping for groceries and school supplies and school schedules and hiring servants.
Speaker 1:The servants never lasted longer than a couple weeks because they were scared of living in a house with a bunch of boys and two young girls. So my uncles cooked and taught me how to cook. We cleaned the house together and we tried to survive and we were alone, forgotten and trying to adapt to our new reality. So one of the things that really stood out to me is how alone she had felt during that whole process of grieving after the funeral and, I think, a lot of time. We put a lot of emphasis on being there for people in the moment, not necessarily long-term. So I wanted to kind of maybe go back a little bit and start off with what is grief in our community and what that looks like.
Speaker 2:So for me grief is some complicated concept for me because culturally or societal-wise that we don't really talk about grief in many aspects of it, even how to and what are the type of grief that we should kind of go through it and where for me it kind of induces a lot of fear, anxiety and worry and that isolation feeling where you are the only one kind of going through that experiences on your own, versus kind of like collective experiences that we can go through in this um spaces, um. So I feel like when we know the type of grief and itself is make us better understanding of like how do I ask for those supports if I am able to? And if I'm not asking for support, how do? How do I be there for somebody who's grieving and what ways that could look like? And so for me I still struggle with that because of the concept itself is very ambiguous for me and I struggle.
Speaker 2:Recently when I lost my grandmother, I remember feeling like there is level of access to that person's kind of discontinued and but it seemed like, just like your friend who shared that I hear that there's not really a go-to formula to kind of grieve it, so you become by yourself and there's not even that type to discuss, right, and I think one of the biggest reason why we're having this conversation, like how can we be there for each other Part of the discussion of like how, what is culturally do we do, how do we are, what are the things that we do well and what are things that we don't really do well, itself too, and so when we discuss what type that looks like I'm still trying to figure out myself- yeah, and I think also there's two aspects of grief right, like the person that is going through it, and then the people that are observing and witness to the grief.
Speaker 3:right and for that, for the person that is going through it, the first thing that we have to validate is that there's no like cookie cutter formula of what grief is supposed to look like. And for most people and some people that necessarily maybe, like their body, doesn't react the way other people's does. Right and like some people, tears are right there. You know, for example, for me I cry watching movies, like if it's you know, something sad happening. I cry If my friends are crying next to me. I'm not the person that comforts them, I'm the person crying next to them. I see a person crossing the street. I'm the person that cried, like you know. Like I see someone something happened to them on the street, I'm the person that cries right there.
Speaker 3:But when something like death happens, my body does not like I literally have to figure out, like trying to make like I could poke my eyes and tears won't come out for the first like significant amount of time, and I used to feel a lot of guilt with that Like does that mean that I don't love the person as much as I thought. Does that mean that, like my outer expression of grief or my outer expression of sadness is not similar to what I'm seeing around me? People can do and I used to think, like this outer, like raging expression of sadness, with tears and screaming, and all of that meant that you loved them more, right, with tears and screaming, and all of that meant that you love them more, right. Um, and so like understanding that everyone's body reacts to grief differently and so like not having shame about how you are reacting to your grief and your loss.
Speaker 3:But then, in addition to the people that are observing and witness to people's grief, that know that so-and-so lost their a person, we also as a community tend to gravitate towards that person that has this like really loud and really prominent expression of grief and like kind of trying to help them. And then we lose and we, those people that are not really that expressive and they, you know, we think they're okay, which sometimes it's actually the opposite, because that person has an outlet Allah has given them. You know, they have the ability to express it out loud, feel it kind of get it out of their system to a certain degree, while that person that is that can't find their, their pain, or that can't find their tears, is struggling and their that struggle comes with. That struggle comes with neglect and feeling like, maybe, and also people's judgment right.
Speaker 3:So imagine, I know a wife that her husband passed away and she couldn't cry. The people around her were crying and people around her, and she was just almost in shock and she hasn't shaken off the shock yet. So there was a lot of doopie, a lot of talk about why isn't she crying, what is going on, and there's, like you know, the swirling of that that happens. So I think, also as a community, as witnesses, making sure that we're checking up on people that are not really having that outer expression that you know that would be.
Speaker 1:I think holding space for that person who is grieving, you know, can go a long way. And as a community I know that you know, traditionally we have the three days of grieving. The three days of grieving One of the things I feel like we do well is that we do show up. You know there are Afoshas or women's groups that you know. Come around, they might do, they'll do all the cooking you know they will serve. And I didn't realize I guess I sometimes, when you're in the culture you kind of take a lot of these things for granted. But you know, working in healthcare and seeing people you know as a respiratory therapist, a lot of the times we're probably the last person to kind of see that person because we might, you know, take off the breathing tube and stuff like that. So sometimes you know there's nobody there. A lot of the times there's nobody there Unless you know this person comes from a community or a background where it's very communal, and then you see the whole room is kind of filled and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:So, alhamdulillah, in that aspect, you know, I feel like as a community we show up, we provide the cooking, the cleaning and for those three days. And so I think what I'm hearing you guys say is that let's maybe take it beyond that. You know, check in with this person after the three days, because, because we do it so often and we do, we have like funerals almost every other weekend. We know if somebody dies back home and stuff like that, it can get into a routine where you go, you pay your respects and then you leave, you know. And so if everybody's doing that, then the week afterwards and I know that you know, my friend that had shared the story with me she was saying how, like the first couple of weeks, everybody was there, the house was packed, but then afterwards, one of the I vividly remember, she was saying how, like the first couple of nights, she was sleeping in her bed and she just felt utterly alone.
Speaker 2:I think I want to explain a little bit about what Bonnie was saying earlier. You know the emotional impact of individuals and the way that they process at the moment and afterward. I think we forget that grief sometimes is like not even sometimes like a, it's like a storm right, and psychologically, your brain it doesn't really digest to the shock when it happened and sometimes you start feeling things after people leave. Sometimes you leave it, you feel it while you're at the moment because your body's able to recognize that Sometimes it takes six months down the road to notice that wait, this person's not here, I can't call them, I can't talk to them and that access is really is denied, Right, and so what the body does is that the emotions, that is like we. Usually the part of our brain is like, the emotion is back here and this shuts down from this part of the brain where things are able to fully process and you as death, your body goes into the shock mode itself. And in our community we don't understand the psychological and the emotional. That grief looks differently for everybody aspect of it, but we only know one way, which is crying and expressing in front of everybody for them to know you are actually sad, right, and that sadness has to be very vivid in their face. It shouldn't be looking like invisible. That invisible aspect of it is something that us Oromo people or, in general, anybody, anyone who lose loved ones is like why is this person not crying? Because the tears hasn't connected to the brain yet, the emotion has not happened yet.
Speaker 2:Even sometime when, like, you get into a car accident, right, it takes you a long time for you to recognize that the shock wore off. Exactly when the shock wears off, then you're like, oh my gosh, that was traumatizing. And so even the death of, especially when we're talking about your friend, the death of her parent and knowing that itself for 10 year old, imagine the trauma physical trauma that that child is going through, right, and now from being a little girl, probably a year prior, just enjoying little things and kind of being exploring herself, to not being an adult, basically in a span of a year, right To losing two people. That is the most concrete and grounded people in her life and within those moments. And I think when we talk about that it's like how can we understand is beyond what we were told culturally or beyond what traditionally we've been practicing. And then there's also human in that body, right, there's emotion in that body, and so even the conversation of like why this person's not crying.
Speaker 2:The person may feel like they're not presently hearing you, but they hear what you said, but they just don't have the emotional energy or the capacity to talk to you about that and how that affected you, and so that messaging kind of goes in the back of their head. It's like why would these people even think about that? That's not even the thing that is in my mind. I just lost the two most important people in my life and my focus is basically how, what am I going to do? What is my sister going to do, Right? What is my family going to do, Right? Is that disconnection is the thing that we should be talking about today. It's like the emotional concept, the emotional support, the emotional availability that we should be when somebody lose Because, like you said earlier, there's a lot of people die in our community Young people, like very, very young people.
Speaker 2:Whether it is suicide, whether it is accident, whether it is homicide, all of it is happening in our community. And then the parents are like a car accident too. The parents like they don't even know what to do Right and sometime there was a conversation I think Bonnie was talking about last week is that the mother has to see somebody that looks similar to her son in order for the shock to alert her saying wait, that's my son, but it's not her son. So basically, what I'm trying to say is that it looks different, and how can we be able to be there for each other when we know that everybody's going to experience it differently?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and to kind of just add a little bit to that and it's funny because I was kind of smiling when you were talking about the other person hears you when you're saying why aren't they crying? I can talk about a specific incident within my life where I just had, you know, my, my, my mom passed away too and I remember hearing it and going down on the ground like literally collapsing to the ground and, um, then I just covered my face and I was on the ground and I remember this lady literally coming this close to my face and telling and saying out loud, right, this, it's insane to me say coming this close to me and saying let me hear what she's saying. Like coming this close, I'm on the ground with my face covered and being like let me hear what she's saying. So I started performing and I started saying things like oh mom, why did you leave? And cause I thought that's what's expected of me my body wasn't reacting like I told you guys earlier.
Speaker 3:I wasn't even having tears, I just was shocked so I didn't know what to do. So I just dropped and she was this close and on the ground, on her knees with me. Instead of comforting me, she was trying to like get some sort of like um material to like use for her grief. You know what I mean. And I started saying these things and I remember like I don't, this is not what I want to say, or I feel like saying I mean I'm sure I was. You know all of those things. So yeah, like the fact that you said they hear you.
Speaker 1:So is it like because I guess my reference point of like funerals might be a little bit different Because like, were they expecting you to do the whole wailing and stuff, like that I think so, not they her specifically, and I think also people come to again the idea that not that inability to understand that maybe this girl is not processing, Maybe, this girl is also, or they go to the extreme right, where they just think you're over it already.
Speaker 3:You're like, you're not. You don't understand, you don't know what is happening. It already, yeah, you're like you, you're not. You don't understand, you don't know what is happening. While, again, like the hobby, like you said, how you know, my brain automatically went to what's next? Who's going to take care of us? What are we going to do? There's nobody here anymore. You know, where do we live? All of these things. It went into problem, into problem solving, yeah, but they think I'm not even there. Yeah, you know. Or that I like, and again, I will, I'll.
Speaker 3:We can go a little bit deeper into the idea of like what is appropriate to expose kids to. You know, because, like I've talked many times, I, I, um, was exposed to, I, I. I still grapple with the idea, like if it was right or wrong. But I remember, at age nine, people dragging me in to say goodbye to my dad's corpse and they're like kiss him, say, say you forgive him, kiss him, and me kissing this person that I love so much, being very grey and very cold, and that's literally the last memory I have of this person. Now, so as, but then there's a finality to it, like whenever my brain and my dreams would, I would go and I used to have dreams about, like, my parents coming back and I would always ask them what happened. Like I know you died because I kissed your corpse, and goodbye, so how did?
Speaker 3:And then they obviously my brain constructs stories, you know, whatever. So there's a finality that came with that action. Goodbye, so how? And then they obviously my brain constructs stories. You know us, whatever. And so there's a finality that came with that action. But there's a lot of trauma that came with it too, because I still feel their skin on my lips. Yeah, I still see the color of their skin, you know. And also you know, with us, with our community, you get washed and all, and so the cold might not even be their skin, it might be the cold water their, their body was washed through, you know, so like. But then there's this and was that appropriate for a nine-year-old in it?
Speaker 3:you know, and so on and so forth, um to be able to, to have that, um experience. So, again, like, my point is either we go too extreme this way where we're literally just expecting them to wail, or we go extreme this way where we're like, oh, they're not going to feel it, they're not going to remember, but they need to do this, and we make them do things that she needs to do. Right.
Speaker 2:And the mindset of like you are doing the things that they want you to do, versus how is she like? How are you doing? Yeah, and in a sense, like one, like one of yeah it's like. So that's what I'm saying. There's like so much of disconnection in our community when it comes to grieving, to where performing is part of it right, not the emotional support of regulation. That happens where the person feels seen and heard, and I think I get why people, anybody, who lose loved ones, especially people who are like kids who lose a loved one they early on experience the loneliness, the depth loneliness that they constantly search for people to see them, understand them. I think it started from that experiences because when they were trying to understand the world, with the most dramatic timing people are telling them to do where they are so disconnected from the mindset of saying let me comfort this person so they don't have to feel anything, and said let's do the things that were traditionally taught to us.
Speaker 1:And I think, even like going back to traditions and stuff like that is, I feel like we're almost stuck between like two extremes, right, like like growing up I always heard like, oh, don't like at funerals, don't wail and don't do this, because that's such an amara thing to do.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I don't know if you guys heard that sentiment. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah because at the other end you have you know the Islamic aspect of it, right? Please, you know, have sabr, have patience. You know, try to go through this. You know the most, the hardest thing in your life, with the thought that you know you will see this person again in the akhirah right.
Speaker 1:And it's not the fact that they have passed away. This is not a finite thing, you know. It kind of um brings that whole thing back together. So I feel like, as a community, we're we're kind of we're not talking about it, but we're stuck in between these two ideas. And how do we create that balance?
Speaker 3:yeah, no, and also you know, I, I, I want to definitely talk about the islamic perspective of you know, people saying like, have sabr and have patience, and also taking that too far, yeah, having a very unrealistic expectation of those that are grieving you know, and I, you know, I talked to you guys about the story of this mom that just lost her kid and I literally, was standing right next to her and she saw someone that she looked like her child and then she started breaking down.
Speaker 3:She wasn't wailing or anything, it was just streams of tears and she was just saying, oh, that's how he looks like, but it's not jumping on her, yeah, and then they were like Allah's gonna, allah's gonna be mad at you and Allah's not human. Yeah, allah knows more about what she's going through than you are, or even she does, yeah. Allah is the most understanding being on the universe, so how can you?
Speaker 1:put your limitations, yeah, and you.
Speaker 3:It's just, it's so disgusting and I and like, in the same funeral, they there was the daughter and, um, she wasn't expressing emotions. Okay, she wasn't expressing emotion. And uh, basically they they were telling her to comfort, comfort her mother and tell her to stop crying, and tell her to, like, get in control. And I was like, I literally was confused to what universe I just entered, because they're like is it now this 17-year-old's responsibility to navigate her mom's emotions of losing a child and get her in control? How does that make sense? But it was very, very annoying and very disgusting, because I think in our community we do have rahmah, we do care about our people, we do want the best for… and the reason those people were saying those things was for her yeah, you know, because they they have this real, genuine belief that Allah's gonna, like smite her or something you know and yeah, um, so I understand it comes from a good place, but sometimes it's not.
Speaker 2:It's misplaced, yeah but, I wonder why, okay, to that, I want to bring something. I was like, why do? Why is it so hard for us as a community to sit with discomfort, the emotional discomfort that we don't know? Because for me, that jumping to the mom to telling her is their own discomfort, yeah, right, so it's like because they feel uncomfortable that she's doing that. So they want to like reduce it. Yeah, right, it's like okay, okay, okay, you're done, you're done, you're done. Crying like so I'm okay. It's more about like how I'm feeling, yeah, than how the person's feeling, but I don't even think they recognize that.
Speaker 3:I think they don't yeah for her. Yeah or for the they think they are.
Speaker 2:They think they are so part of it. I'm curious for you guys, like as we were talking about this conversation of like, when it comes to grief. Grief is a lot of like emotional reloc, right, you feel sad, you feel angry, you feel accepting and then all of a sudden you're going to cry again and you go through all this emotional elevation and different flows that your body is able to understand. But when a person is grieving, why can we just sit with them in silence? They can cry and just say you know, you're doing great. You're doing great that you're crying.
Speaker 1:I don't think we have those tools yet. Yeah, you know I I don't think we've developed I'm trying because, like even me, like forget about a grief of a, like a loved one. At my big age, I'm still grappling with emotions that my children show me Okay. You know what I mean, like yeah it's like a lot of you know working through your own issues first before you can recognize oh, this person needs me to do this and just sit there in silence.
Speaker 2:It's uncomfortable, but that's what I'm saying, right, like when we are jumping on somebody. For me, when I hear and see that right, and that tells me, it's like, okay, yes, you have your own discomfort around grieving and sadness and emotion in general, but how do we get there? Because the funerals are going to keep happening and this behavior is going to continue, traumatizing individuals who need to work through this right. But what can we do in the meantime, noticing that everybody's grief looks different, everybody's sadness looks different, and it's not my job to tell them how to grieve. It's not my job to tell them they need to be patient Islamically, because Prophet Muhammad cried every time. It's not my job to tell them like they need to be patient islamically, because prophet muhammad cried every time. When he went to see his mother's grave, he cried yeah, when he was, when he lost khadijah, he cried like he didn't say don't cry, and he was still sad he's still sad exactly, and he like islamically we can express emotions, we we can talk about emotion, live with emotion.
Speaker 2:But I feel like we kind of take the Islam aspect and use a little bit of cultural understanding that is misguided from Islam. Right, they got it from the misguided understanding of what Islam is and then they try to apply that at funeral. It's one dimensional.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's taking the humanness out of it and it's like applying what is comfortable.
Speaker 2:yeah, not necessarily the holistic view of grief, and yes, and so that's why we're here in this conversation by saying like, okay, how can we have a grief for the individuals who's going through it and what will be the most appropriate way? Because earlier I'm sure you mentioned about balance. Right, in a normal community, what would that balance look like, right In this moment that we're talking about grief?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, first of all, being realistic and logical. Right, it's not always about emotions, in the sense that you don't always just have to come to cry, and there's this aspect again. I always want to go back to this performative piece where they want to go and they want the person that's grieving to see them, so that, hey, just register that I came to your funeral, you know, and it should come from the space of like, okay, if I'm coming, I should come with the purpose, right, the first three days, the first week, alhamdulillah, we're really good about you know, actually rewind.
Speaker 3:Some of us are really good about like coming with food and being there to serve and to help, instead of to be catered to Other of us, to be catered to Other of us and I've also been in my very, very young life. I feel like I have a lot of funeral experiences and I've seen where people that come to comfort the family and then they end up acting like they're at a five-star restaurant and ordering things and ordering the people that just lost somebody to go. Oh, can you please get me some? Can you get me that water? This hulbata doesn't taste very good. Can I get the ruzas? So?
Speaker 1:when did we make it into a catering thing? I want to know because, like not, like I have friends that are like not Oromo and you know still Muslim, east African and stuff. They don't do the whole like cooking and, like you know, serving and the whole catering thing. When?
Speaker 3:did that happen? I don't know, but I know that the Ethiopian Habesha community does that too. Okay, but the difference is their, their Afosha, their, you know not even if for again, oh, I have so much to say about this their afosha or their neighbors, their community takes care of the cooking, literally. One thing, you know, I really, really I think that's similar for us too. Yeah, but one I appreciate about the Habesha community's funeral, and my parents died back home.
Speaker 3:So I kind of it was kind of like that when the person's grieving, they don't have to get up from that space that they're in, they sit there and everyone else takes care of their guests for them, and everyone else makes sure that they're eating, they're drinking for that three, four days time, and while you know, there's this gray tent that they used to put up and like. Well, until the gray tent is there by the fourth day, they pack up the gray tent, wash the dishes, clean the house and leave. That's also a problem, right, but I feel like within our community there's not a lot of that. There is that aspect of the half was just doing that, these things for you. But if someone doesn't have an ahosha, they're screwed. Yeah, if someone doesn't have a community like a support, a support system, they're screwed. I so I sure you guys saw the video. I said y'all, like you know, if someone is an introvert and that doesn't have a big community like me, we're screwed like a big community like me.
Speaker 1:We're screwed like okay, well, give context then of the video oh, so there's this lady on tiktok.
Speaker 3:She said um instagram, is it instagram? And she said uh, she, if you had six people to who?
Speaker 3:are the six people that would carry your casket, and I sent the video to my husband because for her she's. There was this guy, I think it's like in New York. He's like carrying a casket down the street and the casket is doing and I, so I, I genuinely think, like not genuinely, but like I, I make this joke because my, my circle is very tight, I don't have a lot of like buzz around me. So I tell my husband like you better start lifting weights, buddy. Like I might just be you so, but all that is unjust. But in reality it's almost like a popularity contest too, you know, because people only do for those that have done for them to a certain degree and instead of that, like you know being, when you show up, come with food in those times.
Speaker 3:You know, maybe the week after you know, go with food to. You know, maybe that person is not emotionally there to be able to cook for her kids or for for her, you know, his kids, if it's the wife that died, or, you know, for the mom or whatever, like, go with food, go and like and just sit there with them. Sit there, you know this. There is this lady. Actually she went with um, a mate, so she hired a cleaning service lady but she dressed her like normal, you know, like uh, and she said, oh, this is my friend, she wanted to come too and she, while they were there, they just sussed out the house just to make sure, like, hey, do they need?
Speaker 1:help or not?
Speaker 3:And then she went and she said okay, can do, you mind if we just help clean up a little bit? And they, these two are close enough for this. The the person grieving to let that happen, right?
Speaker 3:so and then she was like okay, get, good, get to it and that lady left the house clean and I'm sure you know they she does she didn't feel bad because this lady hired someone else to do this thing for her. She thought it was her friend doing it for her. You know what I mean. So, like being thoughtful and being going a week later maybe you know the two weeks later with food so that they have food to eat for the next couple of weeks. Having helping clean, helping do laundry, like I love, and then that's also a thing that I really really appreciate are these?
Speaker 3:they come and they're like, oh, you know, casserole or whatever it is, so you don't leave it at your door because the idea of like, maybe this person doesn't want to see me yeah, they don't have the the bandwidth to be able to um to deal with, like socializing having like putting that social persona up, so let me just leave it at the door give them a text, you know, if they want to, so that they can pick it up and being that. But then to a certain degree. I don't mean to rag on our community, but to a certain degree some people they're like oh you know or like oh you know there is rahmat.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's also lacking, yeah yeah, so I'm hearing, I'm hearing a couple of things, couple of things. So so I want to say you asked a question before I can add on what Bonnie was saying. Is that well, I think for me, as someone from hotter is that hotter gay? Specifically, we always had food being made, even regardless, as a community, I think the biggest thing that we I love about our community is that we collectively show up. We show up. That's what we do.
Speaker 1:Some balance.
Speaker 2:Yes, right To the ripping of body, no no, no, I'll get to what she said too. Hold on, we show up, y'all, I love y'all, please don't kill me. We show up and then we bring food and we keep company, and I think we do it as formality, right, and I think formality is traditionally kind of keep passing down, and part of us having this conversation is that, yes, what our parents and our generation before that has done is great. We love the collectiveness that we had and how we continue to do that. We're saying and right, we're not saying but, but we're saying and what else can we do? Right? And part of it is like, yes, formally, show up, yeah Right. But we are also saying Don't stop only at the three days, yeah Right. Or the week, or the week or the month or the year, saying if there are six people saying use one weekend, use the other weekend, use the other weekend, kind of delegate that and diversify the support system. And I think that's the new version that we could do Right.
Speaker 1:And I think as part of the balance that we were talking about earlier, and I think, as like people from diaspora, we have that privilege right to kind of pick and choose and say this is what they did well, this is what we can improve on, and to kind of work in this framework of what is a new way of dealing with funerals, not so much saying all of it is bad or all of it is good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. And I think also, just to add up to that, is that especially if you're friends or like close with this person, that just don't think because all of a sudden they're functioning like a normal person, that they're gotten back to their normality because, they will never go back to that normality.
Speaker 3:And then, also, understanding that, one thing I'll tell you guys I had this friend that knew about my mom and so on and so forth, mom and so on and so forth and um and tiff. Later on, my best friend, every, every mother's day, they would call me and have a conversation with me and I would just I, I paid attention later on and somehow, like they it was, I always got to get a call. Like you know, we always talked, but then that day was very consistent they would miss my birthdays.
Speaker 3:To be honest, sometimes like but then they never missed mother's days and they and it's so interesting and then later on, when we got to talking and I was like, did you guys know like you always? And they're like why do you think we did that like? Why do you think we had you know like, and being that thoughtful of like, hey, you know, you know this day might be so painful and hard for that person.
Speaker 3:You know for, or like the birthday of the person that died or the you know even the anniversary of the person that died Having or like Mother's Day and Father's Day, or like Valentine's Day for those that like lost. I know we don't celebrate that, but like the world does, that's when you see it so much right. The happiness is out there and gratitude is out there. So even though they don't celebrate it, they see it.
Speaker 3:That's a trigger yeah so being able to be like, hey, how are you doing? And you don't have to bring up, like I said, I didn't even know, I didn't put two and two together until like a couple of times later where, um, you don't have to talk about the person that's gone, but just having that person, someone to talk, just being there talking to them about anything, you know, just occupying that one hour, that 30 minutes, that 45 minutes that they don't have to talk.
Speaker 2:Think about the person that's gone it's like rewiring the brain to understand that the support system is there, because I think the brain can sometimes like tell you how lonely you are by kind of magnifying all the evidence reason why you're lonely. And I think when people are consistently showing up you can say like, oh, I know Tiff showing up for me, I know this person is showing up for me. I see that person's calling right. So the brain is going to start lessening as you go through the part of the grief process that I'm not really alone in this part because, yes, I'm still the one that's dealing with this I still have support system. Anything part of us talking about the discomfort of emotional grief that we deal with in our community. It's kind of like going back to the balance of routine checking, right to balance of equality, like how can we be able to be equally support one another where the person doesn't feel so much?
Speaker 1:all that is on their shoulder and the other thing is, I think, just providing, like inviting them out yeah, it's a big one, it kind of gets them out of their routine too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and include them in, yeah, yeah because I think I was reading this book over the weekend and something about grief. I can't remember the title right now, but it was saying how, like, sometimes there's a whole loop that happens, right, people don't invite you out, and then it kind of goes back to saying you kind of reinforce the idea that I'm lonely and it just circles. To reinforce the idea that I'm lonely and it just circles, and so, as a friend or somebody you know that is in the circle for this person is to kind of break that chain and kind of invite them out. They might say no the first couple of times but keep doing it until they, you know come on their circle.
Speaker 3:And just to add to things both of you guys were saying about the brain and then the personality change. You know, grief changes fundamentally the person's inner working inside their brain and then also that obviously impacts their personality right so when the way we process as a, the way we process um, emotions, we become almost nerve endings to a certain degree, uh and uh that causes maybe, maybe the person will that used to be very zen and calm and like normal, like you know, has a normal temper.
Speaker 3:Temper uh might all of the sudden be easily irritable or might be someone that is has a short fuse or whatever you know secluded. Someone that might be a social butterfly might turn into a recluse. Someone that is has a short fuse or whatever you know secluded. Someone that might be a social butterfly might turn into a recluse someone that was a recluse might turn into a social butterfly.
Speaker 3:Because what I like to say is that, um, I, I always have all of that is a coping skill. It's a coping skill right. And also for for those people like sometimes there is self-medication that happens with that, because I used to always say it feels like there's two craters in my body, in my soul, that I hear the echo of it Right Whenever I'm by myself. I used to echo go places and do things with people to not hear that echo of these big, huge craters that are vacuum of right that vacuum that's there.
Speaker 3:So people would used to be like oh, how come you're always hanging out with people? Oh my god, you're a social butterfly. Oh my god, you have 10 000 friends. If you ask those 10 000 people if they really knew me at a certain point, they didn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:They only knew the surface, they only knew the bubbly, you know, like whatever. So being able to like, okay, maybe this is how this person's processing things maybe this is how this person is processing things the change in personality.
Speaker 3:Being gracious and merciful enough to be under to understand, this person just went through, like you said, the habit. They just lost access to them, one of the most important people in their life or someone that had a very big impact in their life. Of course it's gonna have a ripple effect in their personality. Of course that's gonna create a distress. You know, I was talking to you guys yesterday actually I wasn't, I wasn't gonna address this, but you idea, like my parents died out of like literally in a span of like this right, and they weren't sick for a very long time. It wasn't something that's expected. It was quick and fast and came and gone. So that created a very uncertain uncertainty if people are going to stay alive, for me uncertainty if people are going to stay alive.
Speaker 3:For me so, while I was, you know, because I knew we were doing this I had done a lot of talking and processing some you know this, this situation the last couple of weeks, and it triggered within me this fear and anxiety about my children dying, my husband dying.
Speaker 2:So I was staying up at night to kind of going checking my kids breathing dude, did I just pick up on your anxiety, because last night, in the last two nights, I'm not sleeping either.
Speaker 3:No, seriously, I literally was just like, and I I was like walking around the house making sure the windows are closed, the door is closed, and making sure like my kids are breathing, making sure that they're like and you know, just being extremely and like the way I was driving and just making sure, like all of that, and I didn't realize why, all of a sudden, this thing I had put away, that I felt like I haven't experienced in a long time.
Speaker 2:Anxiety death is real.
Speaker 3:Yes, it's real. So with coming back and I realized it started happening after, we were having this conversation. We were talking about this conversation and it happened because, of course, therapy, therapy, therapy, you know, and that breakthrough. I love that, yeah. So I just like there's that fear of like you might not want to start having friendships anymore because you don't know if you create these new connections and what if they walk out and they get killed.
Speaker 2:It's very debilitating. It's so debilitating that it makes that your whole nerve system to shut down with so much of danger and fear. Because your mind understands like I don't want to invest any more emotional work with people. What if I again lose this person? Because I think here's my trauma with death. Right, I remember when I think I was probably 17 or 18.
Speaker 2:This is the reason why I don't like to answer my phone while I'm sleeping. When my great aunt passed away, I picked up the phone and my dad told me while I was sleeping that she passed away and from back home, from back home, okay. And then I said I was sleeping and then I gave my phone to my sister and then I was just kind of like sitting up against the wall processing what just happened and what I just heard. And this is one of my favorite great hands, and so to this day, I don't like a phone call from back home. I don't have a really comfort with that. The first thing I said is everything okay. Is everything okay? Because my reaction is like I'm going to hear a bad news. I'm going to hear a bad news. I'm going to hear a bad news, yeah, even during the day, like when my sister calls me. My sister knows now she said Assalamualaikum first and then she calls Right, so I know it's safe to answer the phone physically.
Speaker 2:Because even as I'm talking about this experiences right now, the gut wrenching of what that night felt like for me is still presently there and I think even the conversation we might be collectively going through this the last two nights I'm getting up in the middle of the night having this gut anxiety feeling where I'm like okay, so there's this thing in an EMDR that you do is kind of like you find a box and you put information there until you're ready to deal with it. So I use that as an EMDR therapist. I use that to kind of go back to sleep because I did my duas, I talked to Allah, but at the same time the the like tossing and turning with anxiety was so present that I was like, okay, this is the things that I need to put it away and then I can talk about it in the morning or I can deal with it later because I need to sleep. So when, bonnie, you were talking about your anxiety around death for your kids I don't know, maybe it's this conversation itself is so like heavy for all of us because we selectively lost family members in some aspect of it and it's relatable and I don't think it's like.
Speaker 2:This is what we talked about earlier when we said like it doesn't end just the time the passed that person passed away. It continues to with you for the rest of your life. It changes you how you interact with people. It changes you how you make connection. It changes you how you build relationship. It changes you because you're like what, if you leave too, like the abandonment is so significant that it really like physically debilitates you.
Speaker 3:yeah, so I just want to name that, yeah, and I, I want to just like add to that, like you know, sometimes it's not even, it's not even like anything that is related to that right, like, and sometimes, like I you know, now my husband knows um, if he's out and he can't answer his phone, he has to text me. I can't answer my phone, like I'm okay, I just can't answer my phone, it's okay because my brain doesn't go. Oh, he's ignoring me and it goes, he's dead, like that's literally where my brain goes like if.
Speaker 3:um, so yeah, like if my, if I don't talk to my, my sibling, and they don't answer, like if I don't get a response, and that used to come off very clingy.
Speaker 1:And like controlling yeah.
Speaker 3:Controlling yeah Because I used to get really upset when someone doesn't respond back and not like respond answer. Just let me know you're okay.
Speaker 2:But I never used to have.
Speaker 3:That's anxiety though, exactly, but I never used to have the, the language to express why I was feeling the way I was feeling. So people used to think I just like was controlling and like is very clean. So what are? What are like?
Speaker 1:some resources then, Cause I think we have to wrap up as well. But what are the resources? Cause these are like super heavy, you know, labor intensive, um, emotions around grief and abandonment and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:I think, before we jump into resources, I want her to finish her thought, because she was just talking about how that effect is being worrying about other people when she's like anxious about their existence.
Speaker 3:No, I, yeah, I mean it's. It's just the fact that, like we see and like you know, people will label certain things because they don't understand certain things. I know that one being able to be honest about like, why, like you have to ask why, because, almost if you lost someone important in your life, there's a lot of a big chance most of your personality traits can go back to you know what I mean, can go back. You can trace that like oh, why did this shift? I used to be like this and now I'm like this, and you can trace that to that loss because how did you receive it, how, how was it told to you? Oh, how close was this person? How did that happen? Was it fast, was it slow? Or, you know, was it something that was really disruptive? All of these things. So it creates a personality and even like I used to call them defects I'm told not to call them that Like these spaces and these vacancies in your personality, that's that kind of other people might be able to label something else.
Speaker 3:Like I said, my friends used to think that I was clingy, or my you know like and I used or bossy, because I did it and I had to explain. Once I figured it out, I had to explain hey, I really just want to know you're okay. Can you just let me know you don't? We don't have to talk, just say, hey, I can't talk right now, but I'm okay and I'm good those are valid requests, though.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Yeah and I'm good, or saying like, uh, the idea, the feeling of, um, sometimes being not enough also could go back to that, because sometimes the people you feel like how come all this death is happening around me? Yeah, you know, how come everyone that I?
Speaker 2:love seems to go.
Speaker 3:You know, and like I'm here, survival's guilt is real, like, oh, if this person was here, maybe they will be able to figure this situation out and maybe able to help these people out more than I do, and you know, and like I can you. So, anyway, long story short, making sure that you understand this grief within our community. We understand that grief doesn't show up one way. Yeah, the personality and brain chemistry of people that are grieving really gets altered altered for a lifetime, not time doesn't heal shit if you don't work on it yeah you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:If you don't, go to therapy if you don't investigate, if you don't take your medicine, meaning, like you know, like and and it's time is not going to do it yeah yeah, it's just going to bury it and it's going to fester, it's going to show up in different ways, yeah, and then, lastly, I think, also making sure that you have one. You have a really strong connection with allah, because, god, that allah is a real thing, it helps in so many ways, but then, at the same time, not guilting people because they haven't gotten there yet, because that ruins their relationship with allah, because and you don't want to be responsible for that you don't want to be responsible why someone turned away from Allah because you talked your nonsense and got in between that relationship.
Speaker 3:So that's all I think I would like to say is that there's so many different aspects of life. Grief hits All of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's important. I think some of the the let's talk about the do's and don'ts that we should be doing at funerals, right and before and after, including what bonnie was saying is that during the funeral, one of the things that is do is like offer the duas and support the people and be presently there. Whether, however, you're going to be showing up and don't mind for me, don't go down.
Speaker 3:Really, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I keep going.
Speaker 2:We're talking about like etiquette of how we can show up at funerals, gossiping, right, judging the way that a person is grieving, and then being able to kind of like putting the pressure on the griever, the person, to explain what happened. Yes, and also it's like and then put in responsibility to serve you, and that's a don't, like a big don't, and also do is continue to support afterward. Yeah, right, so that's some of the things that we kind of need to balance and do in order for us to kind of manage those expectations as a community moving forward. And I think part of it is like also some of the things that we said earlier is like, as the diasporas, oromos, or people who live in the West, we can take our tradition and add a new way to it, so that way that, like, we can kind of get rid of certain things.
Speaker 3:So that balance itself is yeah, and I also. It just came to me right now that, like we can kind of get rid of certain things. So that balance itself is yeah, and I also. I just came to me right now funerals, yes, you can be introspective and grateful that this thing is not happening to you, but the funeral and the tazia space is not the place to reflect that or to speak about that oh I can never imagine if this happened to me.
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't. Or like I literally wallahi wa billahi. I remember a mom hugging her daughter and saying I don't know what I would do. I don't know what I would do if this happened to me?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been really intensive. I'm like, are you?
Speaker 1:kidding, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:But they don't realize. They don't realize. People hear, they think they're so quiet, even though they're speaking in octaves, that the universe could hear yeah, yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's just a reflect what they haven't processed either.
Speaker 2:I think, hopefully, right, this conversation can be a highlight to people, right, like we are, our stories and Bonnie's stories and the stories that you shared is something that would resonate to people saying you know what? I know there are certain things that I don't like about the way we do it, but we can improve it, right? I think this is why we're having this conversation is to highlight saying, hey, we need to do better and we do something really good, but we also need to do better. Hey, we need to do better and we do something really good, but we also need to do better. And so, to kind of going back to what you were saying earlier, is that, resource-wise, that part of it? I think we already mentioned a lot of the resources is how can we show up for one another and what do you think, based on our community, the best resources or even the nuanced resources that we should be having in our community?
Speaker 1:I think the masjids honestly, even the nuanced resources that we should be having in our community, I think the masjids, honestly, I think that they can play a bigger role in helping people process grief and stuff like that, rather than just being a place where the funeral is held yeah, or being a place where you know the family of the grieved or whatever pays the masjids and you know they stay the three days there of the grieved or whatever pays the masjids and you know they stay the three days there, because a lot of times it even puts a bad taste in the people who are masjid goers for the people having the funeral there, because they leave, you know, food everywhere and it's like it's unclean and all that stuff. But I think the masjids need to do a better job and step up and provide counseling. You know grief counseling provide. You know so many resources that our community lacks because fundamentally the masjid has to be that focal point of the community and do more.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and the other resources that I would add is that, like always, I will say if you're able to, if you can. I think grief counseling is always the right thing to go about when you're experiencing it and saying, like you know, I don't have a space in my community or in my social environment that I can grieve this, but I don't understand what's happening to me because I'm not grieving the ways I'm expected to grieve.
Speaker 1:But I think, if we're trying to target our community specifically, I think that the masjid is probably the best place to do grief counseling and target those people. It is, but a lot of people are not at the masjid, but they will never go to seek these things out on their own, but the youth are not at the masjid, can I also just add. But our funerals are not own, but the youth are not at the mosque, can I also just add. But our funerals are not really run by the youth, though.
Speaker 2:It is, that's true, but who are we trying to engage?
Speaker 1:in these experiences. I understand that. But I'm saying, if we're trying to change how we do things as a community, I think that that's one place that Is kind of a springboard.
Speaker 3:It doesn't have to be the only place and I think we also have to understand that Oromo people. There's like having an Oromo community center and having a grief counselor there or someone that is centered there that would be able to help the Oromo community, either Muslim, christian, In their language.
Speaker 1:In their language.
Speaker 3:And then also having. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that you both are right Having being able to have someone that is in the masjid and that is also having to be honest, having our sheikhs go through grief counseling like certifications or something, so that they're able to have the secular understanding and secular ways of like you know giving therapy, not therapy, but even advice.
Speaker 1:So Islamic advice because the reason why I say that is because, like on Friday, I went to um Jummah at one of our masjids and the topic that was talked about like it had no, like I was like how does this relate to me? You, what I mean as somebody going to the masjid having my own issues and blah, blah, blah. It's completely disconnected. You know what I mean, and so I think they— Wait, what was being—was there a funeral happening there?
Speaker 3:Is that what they were talking about it?
Speaker 1:was, but it's not like—I can't even remember the topic of what it was because I just completely checked out. You know what I mean, because we have so many like. We have grief going on, we have deaths in our community, we have drug use, we have suicide and all this stuff, but it's not being talked about. On the member.
Speaker 3:And you know what it is. Actually, when I went to the masjid I think it was on Friday, not this Friday, but not probably they were talking about how the sheikh was talking about how he feels like it's whack-a-mole time, so like they only get members at that space and at that time so they want to be able to address like so many things that sometimes maybe they're addressing that thing that's in the forefront of their mind and then that thing might not be something that relates to you specifically, or anybody, oh yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So I mean I do want to kind of yes, you're right, we need it all. We need more and I think we continue to. We'll have this conversation where we can kind of provide more resources and support system. Yeah, but I do want to just kind of do a recap of today's show and that grief.
Speaker 2:Again, it takes a lot of emphasis and empathy and patient and balance and kind of providing that and being able to understand that every single grief is personal. To understand that every single grief is personal. Respecting the Islamic principles is also another aspect of going through that and understanding that there is nuance to ways that other people may grieve, and so part of it that we just want to encourage our audience to hopefully this is a conversation that needs to continue having, but for them to just kind of have a place to be seen and heard and understood a little bit, and so we just want to invite our listeners to think about different ways that they also approach grief and how they grieve themselves and ways that it worked for them in the past, and that is something that we can continue to share and how to change you know what are ways that our community can improve, because there are so many things that we probably haven't thought about.
Speaker 1:You know creative ways that we can implement yeah, absolutely so thank you so much, everyone.
Speaker 3:This has been difficult conversation.
Speaker 1:Join the conversation in the comment section or on our instagram page to share with us what you think. We do not have all the answers and our biggest goal is to kick off and get the conversation going. May Allah accept our efforts and use us as catalysts for change.