Difficult Conversations
Difficult Conversations
Empathy Beyond Labels
Losing parents at a young age profoundly impacts a child's psychological and emotional landscape. Bonni shares her personal journey as an orphan, exploring the feelings of isolation, societal perceptions, and the need for community support while emphasizing the importance of constructive conversations about loss.
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As-salamu alaykum, welcome to Difficult Conversations where we tackle taboo topics in a safe space, through empowerment and education episode we're going to be talking about parent and you know and relationship with our children and the loss of a parent and what that looks like as an you know, being an orphan, and what that looks like in the community, as well as the psychological impact on children. So before we start, we just want to kind of give a shout out to our co-host, who's not feeling well today and she's not here. Salam to you, akshira, and I hope you feel better and we can't wait to see you in our next episode. And so, yeah, me and Bonnie today are going to be discussing Mainly. It's going to be Bonnie answering some questions about her own experiences as an orphan and what her experience was like, and I will be kind of diving into getting to know her from that perspective and allowing the space for us to tell us her the way that she walked through these experiences for herself, and I will kind of be engaging on that and supporting Bonnie in this space as well. Please listen to it, and this topic is most likely is going to be very heavy, very, I think, is emotionally needed, and I hope, as a listener, you are giving yourself space and support as you listen to this episode and hopefully you'll learn something that is importantly need to be discussed in the conversation that we will be having here and I hope you continue to have it with your loved ones and where we can kind of you know talk about the things that we don't usually talk about it and trying to kind of have that understanding.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to go ahead and dive in and ask Bonnie typical, what was it like for her first? And then we'll talk about from Islamic perspective and other aspect of it. So so, bonnie, tell us like, what was it like for you, um? I know in our previous episode we talked about grief and you talked about your parents, um, losing both of your parents within the six months period and how that affected you. What was it afterward like life for you, the? You know, just kind of, give us a little bit of summary and that experiences for you, um?
Speaker 3:for me it was. It was very interesting, because everything around you changes when you lose your parents, when you lose those people that are supposed to be your support system, your providers, literally, because for me they passed away when I was age all and then also you lose contact with um. This thing that is fundamental and most people I feel like take for granted, which is unconditional love. There is no unconditional love outside of like being a parent or your parents, like your relationship with your parents. Every other relationship in your life is very conditional, you know, including your siblings, so, and we don't really know how much that means to us until we lose it, until it's not there anymore.
Speaker 3:For me, uh, I I guess I have to kind of a little backtrack to how I was when they were alive, right, um, I grew up in a community where I was one of the well-off families. I had friends that um enjoyed being friends with me, you know, for one reason or another, and um, I also felt like being well off, like I and my parents being, you know, doting parents, strict, yet doting parents. Um, I never really knew um people's like. I was always like appreciated in the spaces that I entered. I was appreciated. In the spaces that I entered, I was welcomed.
Speaker 3:In the spaces that I entered, I never felt like I. I was one of those people that was in a space that they weren't wanted, or they made people uncomfortable. And then I realized, very soon after people, when I didn't have my parents anymore, um, people's interaction with me changed. Either they were, uh, looking at me through the eyes of pity, um, or they were looking at me through, um, the lens of discomfort, because, like my presence was making them uncomfortable, or they were looking at me from a space of like vulnerability, like they could see how vulnerable I was, and like they would say things that they never used to say before, or they would treat me in a way that they never would treat me before. Um, so and I don't know if that is just my, my sensitivity to people's around me, and that that change, and maybe they, it's their discomfort that made me feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:You know, I have to give that um, I mean, you did lose your parents at the young age and you might be, at that moment, hyper aware of people's interaction towards you compared to what you didn't. Maybe you didn't have an idea. These people, their interaction was not as important before it wasn't as important before I.
Speaker 3:You know, like I remember this specific time, you know when again, like when my mom had just passed away and I really didn't have that much. It was like a weekend, I think. I didn't have anything to do. I was at home watching TV. And then I got bored. So I went to a neighbor's house and normally I would be like, oh, Sarah's here, like Armani's here, like Armani's here, you know like, hi, how are you, how's it going? And then it felt like they're like hi, how are you? Come on in. And then they sat and they kind of were wondering why I was Like it felt like they were wondering why I was there, even though I was there for company Because, like I just there was not anyone at home at the moment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, and I mean kids, my age also, you know, with with youth and with their also they were young. But at the same time, with that comes a level of brutality because, um, they would say things that, um, were a little bit harsh to hear. You know, like that was like one of I feel like not that much, but I remember specific incidents where specific girls would use like, oh, you know, you were all that, but you're not anymore, really.
Speaker 3:You know, yeah, like or um, what. What are you going to do? You get into rent to your own.
Speaker 2:Really, yeah, so like part of the things that I really wanted to know was part of the psychological impact and I think when you share that, I can sense the impact that it had on you and especially at the young brain, a young part of you. Yeah, that is so vulnerable of feeling accepted. And here is just a treatment that you're getting from your peers who are like your age kids that you used to play with.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I mean I I think there's a level to it. Like, again, I don't hold any of it against them because they're kids and they're using whatever um, whatever they can, you know, right, like I. So that's fine, um, but I do remember the atmosphere in my life changing. I remember like I felt like the world had stopped for me and everybody was like just going on about their day and everybody I felt like I was wounded, like I was a wounded animal and everybody was just like treating me like nothing had happened at the same time. So it was a very oxymoronic experience, because at one end, they were treating me very differently than they were before and another end, they're not treating me differently in a way that I want to be treated differently, because I needed help, I needed attention, I needed support, I needed there's these vacancies that I needed filled, but there were. There was not anyone there outside of my family that was able to fill that Like you know what I mean Like outside of my uncles that were able to be, and they they were not. They were not um, aware or they, they, I. I give so much credit to them because they were on survival, they were in survival apparatus. They, I survived because of them.
Speaker 3:I was fed, I was, I had clean clothes, I had, you know, a bed to sleep in, I went to school. I never missed school. Um, they helped me with my homework, they did what they, what they could, yes, but then the practice there was nobody there to let. I can cry too, yeah, you know, and to be honest, I think I spent a lot of years not not expressing any grief, like I think after the first week I spent a lot of time crying, um, by myself, but then, you know, I, and then after that, I just um, I stopped crying and I stopped. I kind of just shut it and like put, like you know, kind of put it in a box, put it and, and I just didn't deal with it until I had to deal with it because it was showing up in different ways in my life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I want to explain a little bit of the psychological impact of that because, even as a developmental stage, right, you're losing your parents before the age of 10 years old. At the same time, that dramatically changed your brain, your view of the world, your view of safety, your view of protection, your view of emotional security. So, like when we talked about the traumatic experiences, we can't negate that this is one of those form of traumatic experiences that you have faced, where in psychology, we call it complex trauma and where it comes as layers. Right, this is such a very critical time in your stage of development and then, all of a sudden, you're like losing the two main protective of your lifehood, right, and now you are going through the world from that point of view, and now you are going through this experience I, if you, if you don't mind talking about that a little bit more oh yeah.
Speaker 3:So initially I was seeking out people to because, again, like I said, there was a lot of time that I had to spend by myself.
Speaker 3:I was very, very um lonely in the sense that, um, I really, because I was hyper aware of what I didn't have. I was hyper aware of who did what before. Again, I also like to emphasize that, like my parents were, parents were very, very strict, but I was spoiled, right, I was like spoiled in the sense that they gave me everything that they could. They were there in every event, every, you know, every chance they had to celebrate me. They did right, they did right. So, um, when all of that gets turned off, yeah, and all of a sudden you are having these moments where either you're there, are people there that are trying to be there for you, but um, can't you know in the same way.
Speaker 3:For example, you know some, something simple. You know, me and my mom, on friday nights we used to go to um cafes. Uh, she used to pick me up. It was my favorite thing to do, because fridays we had um shit, I didn't wear a mascara, waterproof mascara, and I knew I was gonna cry today but you're doing great, just vanity a little bit. So she used to take me to cafes and, because we had half days and she used to pick me up, we used to go to like this cafe. We used to get a cake and like juice, like, and, um, smoothies not just smoothies and it was like literally one of my favorite, like I can't wait until it was friday because that was something that we ate every friday like clockwork.
Speaker 3:And then on the weekends, my dad he used to work in adizaba and margato, so we used to go to be like, oh, we're gonna go visit dad, but then we're really going there during lunchtime so he can take us out to a restaurant. So, um, we would just on weekends, that's what we did. So there was like these regiments that we did, that all of the sudden, fridays felt like one of the most dreaded days for me, because there was a lot of reminders, like there was this, like you know, and like my brain was so used to being excited sometimes that that instead of excitement, it was just pain. You know, I was like it was so much pain and um. And then also there's this feeling of everybody seems to have something I don't Everybody and the concept of safety right, like I felt very, very vulnerable.
Speaker 3:I felt like I couldn't get in fight. I never got in fights, but I couldn't piss anybody off because I really didn't have anybody that was going to defend me, right? So I felt like I think my people pleasing personality started then because I started performing not just performing, but I started being more. I used to be very cutthroat, like before the age of 10, I used to be like you, either like me or don't, I don't care. I mean you were being assertive.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean and being direct and people, people used to know me as like oh, like Bonnie will tell, now I've kind of gotten there, yeah, um, we'll tell you exactly. Like you know, whatever I used to be that girl, that people, um, and either I had friends or I didn't, and I didn't care. I used to be like at home and my mom would be like go out, play with people.
Speaker 2:So I think that's part of it. Is like what you mentioned, our previous episode, where you said that grief would change your personality as a whole Definitely, and now you, the person that you used to be, you no longer relate to, and this new version is trying to find a sense of safety in the world. And, however that may be, is and which is why I think we tap into people pleasing, because people pleasing is form of like hey, see me, know me, like me, yeah, like me.
Speaker 3:Like. I can be likable. I can be lovable, Like see if I just give you everything that I have to give then maybe you'll love me and um about that. You know, changing personalities. I think, um, when you go through these phases of change, your personality, and just more and more frequently, because, um, I feel like first you go to that space of like withdrawal, because you're all of a sudden you're not safe, you're not um, you're alone.
Speaker 3:You are understanding, you're being very hypersensitive to people's reactions and people's changes around you right so you become, you withdraw, and then for me I don't know if this happens to everybody else for me what happened was okay, I can't be in this solace by myself anymore. This is too much. So I started throwing myself into people, I started throwing myself into friendships and I started throwing myself into like I wanted my teacher. I was like the teacher's pet. I was having like 10,000 friends, even like in.
Speaker 3:When I came here I wanted to be the best at everything, just because I wanted to be liked, I wanted to be recognized, I wanted to be seen, and I thought, like any, if I got like just enough crumbs of affection and enough crumbs of attention, then it will fill this vacancy, this void, right. And then, um, and then I realized, like it's too much work, right. And then that comes also with maturity, like I'm talking about, like maybe I did too much work, right. And then that comes also with maturity. Like I'm talking about like maybe I did that for 10 years, right. So like not even 10 years, I would say like I probably so. Like that was 10, maybe until end of high school, until 18. So do you?
Speaker 2:think our community has a way or spaces, when you're talking about these experiences of kind of searching for your void in the spaces, do you think as a community do we have spaces, or do we talk about it, or do we even recognize what does it mean to be an orphan? And how do we? How do we like kind of make them inclusive into the part of the community or not even make them feel like a pity, but more like accepting of them?
Speaker 3:no, I think you make that space for no, I, for my again, my experience in my experience, I hated being part of the community. I, I hated it because the people that knew my like about my parents story, um, they only thing they did was and they use that as an excuse. I succeed, it's because I'm your team. Yeah, I succeed it's because I'm a team. I succeed it's because I'm a team. I fail it's because I'm a team. And that's also puts like oh, you know she, so I was.
Speaker 3:It was very, very clear to me that I can't fail, I can't misbehave, I can't have a teenager moment because I don't have my mom to defend herself here, because other kids could could have a teenage moment and, like you know, have a wild moment or whatever, like a self-expression and um, but and then their parents were like, oh, I didn't raise her like that, it's just just going through something. Like, oh, I didn't raise her like that, it's just just going through something you know. And then, but for me, I couldn't do that. I was very clear when I came here. I was like there's no way.
Speaker 2:I will rather die than someone say, samia's child turned out like this, but I so to that there's not a but, but it's like to that I see as like so much pressure on the young teenager who is like trying to figure out her own world, yeah, and she's kind of trying to manage this expectation that society had pushed out on her to be that she didn't ask for, yeah, and instead of her trying to kind of figure out how she understand herself, but now she has to kind of bring that for everybody has to be accepting of her, definitely, and I think, just to go back to that idea of like the community, I think most of the time I I said it last time too which is our community, likes to mine for information, for you know, either their gossip circles or just to you know, I don't know what the purpose is, but they like to mine information.
Speaker 3:So let me tell you an incident, right? So like I would go to a wedding and they would Hi, how are you? I'm good, how are you? Maybe they don't know my mom and they will say, oh, this is Naomi's, um, naomi's, uh, niece. You know her mom. She died back home and all of the sudden, the table of the wedding, people that don't know even my name, know my story, the most vulnerable parts of me they are exposed to, and I don't have without me asking for it so, and, or I could go to a wedding, the same thing.
Speaker 3:I'm like what. That just makes me feel rich. I wanted me. I felt like I needed to retreat more, you know, and um again, I feel like this is not a my only story when it comes to this, I know I keep saying this is my story, my experience. I've seen a lot of people go through this where, right, but we're talking about you, right?
Speaker 2:now, so your story can be the highlight.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I say that I make sure, like I say that out loud because I don't want it to be like just it's the, these specific people. I've seen a lot of people that address. Even just a couple of years ago, you know, I noticed this family that lost their parents, basically, and they lost their dad, and then the mom passed away afterwards and the conversation is just comes from like useless, pity, like okay, you're pitying them, great, now what? What are you gonna do? Are you? Are you? Are you there? Are you trying to support oh, you were talking about, this child is getting getting in fights in school instead of sitting around talking about it in your coffee circles or your gym circles. What are you trying to do to help this child? You know, if we are as a community, you're you feel like it's important enough to bring to your table, to bring this issue to your table. Are you talking about it to advance anything or are you just talking about it to just backbite that child? You know what?
Speaker 2:I mean yeah. So then I'm hearing a couple of things, right, so there is the lack of understanding of what does it mean to take care of orphans in our community, and then there's a lack of also understanding what that means and not trying to look for information to just for the sake of gossiping and kind of feeling pity for kids. And then I'm also hearing, like what do we? What is Islamically been said about this conversation itself? Right, I think in islam, orphan prophet muhammad talks about salallahu alayhi wa sallam, like what does it mean to be an orphan?
Speaker 2:He's also an orphan himself, so he praised that, he praised us talking to taking care of orphan, like a person who take care of orphan. They're like this with me in jannah. He talks about it, just like being able to be there. And I feel like there's a lot of understanding, ignorance that comes within our community where it comes to talking about orphan, even caring for orphan, not from a sense of feeling pity or having a conversation topic to have, but understanding that they're also a person who experiences the most traumatic thing. And naming that, I think yeah, and naming that, I think that's something that I think we're missing do you feel that I feel like they don't do?
Speaker 3:yeah, definitely, I mean, there's no alhamdulillah again. Like I said, I am, I, I am an, uh, best case scenario, right, like there's so many people that they, I had aunts that put me in their life, that included me in their decisions, that made me, you know, that I could have just been back home, yeah Right, like that could have been my story. Allahu alam, what would have happened then? But you know, and they put me in their story, they put me in their life, they groomed me in the way that I feel like they knew how to the best way they knew how to, and they, they knew how to the best way, they knew how to, um, and they protected me in that such a manner, and I think also it was like a bittersweet way. They were also yetims, yeah, you know, and therefore, and they, my aunts, came here, just the two of them, and they didn't have any other family, so everybody also did the same thing to them that they did to me, so they kind of prepared me for what to expect. Right.
Speaker 3:So, level of isolation, Again different, but because they lost their parents.
Speaker 3:They're a lot more older yeah, when they were older. But the level of interaction and what kind of interaction I was going to get from the community, they prepared me for those things. And what kind of interaction I was going to get from the community, they prepared me for those things. So I felt like which is also why I came in with like 11 years old and 12 years old, I knew immediately, like you cannot, like you can either stay as far away from the community as you can and therefore, like they can't they don't know you enough to make any judgments of you or, if you are in the community, just make sure that you are as pristine as you can possibly be, and that is such like you fail.
Speaker 3:So many times Because, no, there's no way. As a teenager, you cannot. You know what. I mean, I wouldn't call that a failure.
Speaker 2:I call that teenager experiencing her world. Yeah, but I think, yeah, for them it's like the standard that they put you on the pedestal, that they created for you to not me. The idea, the idea, exactly, but that's what I'm saying. Like you, they expecting that from you, right, so eventually they can say, oh, she's doing that because she doesn't have a parent.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, yeah, and I think even that, and if you fail, they're gonna say she failed because she doesn't have a parent exactly.
Speaker 2:but that's what I'm saying, like the psychological abuse in that statement, the emotional abuse that is that statement, yeah, that it has on a child. That's what I'm seeing you as a child who's experiencing that and I can't comprehend the, the pain that feels like, yeah, because you're constantly walking in the world with the pressure of feeling perfect, yeah, and making sure that you can be perfect Right. The pressure trying to be perfect, but even the way they're not feeling perfect.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that is how do I? Which school are you teaching me to be that, and what pressure should I need to navigate through to get better at it? And there's no room for forgiveness, there's no room of understanding, and mercy, too, and there's lack of compassion in this state. That's what I'm trying to say, and so and the other question that I have for you is like what are some of the things that are off the grid that they said to you in this experience? Is that you're like today, oh, my god, I can't believe these people have mentally common sense to say something like this. Yeah, I mean gosh, um they.
Speaker 3:I've had a lady like ask me to like almost um, walk her through the days like what happened and you know so how did, and I was like I don't know you and you're literally asking me to walk down the like memory lane to one of the most painful moments of my life. Yeah, and like it's nothing. Or I've had, like I said, you know, like when it came to little kids, like they used it as weapons against me.
Speaker 3:I've had a so-called friend and I've told you this story where this person described me as damaged goods, like oh, you know, she, she's, she's cute, but she's damaged goods, she's, she's messed up in the head because her parents passed away. Uh, I've had, so I mean, like, I've had people try to, um, I've had people try to like oh, you know, you, like, ask, yeah, like, for me it's more so so many things like. Again, most of most of it comes from, I think, like kids my age or that are very blunt and they say things that are like oh, I had actually friends in college that said you and that's also another thing that I like to talk about in this conversation is sometimes we because we're're so, sometimes we're hyper aware and hyper mature in certain things and in certain spaces, and that maturity happens because of the trauma response and you said I can't.
Speaker 3:I want to highlight it is a, it's a survival apparatus right and then in certain spaces we are, we lack a. I lacked a certain level of maturity because I felt like, if I again that need for connection, right, I felt like if I, if I just told you why I was the way I was, maybe you'll understand my tics, right. You'll understand my tics right, you'll understand my triggers. So I after like, and and this is why I say like, please be careful who you disclose, what you disclose to, yeah, when you are in that space and if you are someone that is this things are is being disclosed to you, please do it like, carry it with mercy and and and compassion, because for me, um, I had these friends that basically told me you're, you're, you're doing it like, you're telling us this to get like sympathy points, or this was literally called sympathy points or like um, just because you have a sad story, it doesn't mean that you're, you're um, like I don't remember exactly the words.
Speaker 3:It was like, just because you have a sad story and just because you have um, like basically, whatever, uh, it doesn't make you um any less or any more. Like, I don't want to say responsible, but like, does it make you better? It doesn't make not better, but like it doesn't mean that you get any more slack, like it doesn't mean like you should get any more slack, and I think the context was like. So it was like I was basically trying to explain. Hey, you know, like I like this, things maybe set me off a little bit more, I'm a little bit more sensitive and withdrawn and during this time, or you know, whatever, whatever you're basically communicating your emotions.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, and I, and they were basically like you're just, that happened a long time ago, like just because, because you, you know, whatever, like maybe I think, I think actually I remember now I was kind of a bitch for a week, okay, and that week happened to be the week that I was just very, very missing.
Speaker 2:My mom and I had a lot of things going on and I, um, so you're basically having a reaction from feeling sad, yeah, and that reaction turns into be a behavior that other people were not. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So I apologized and I said you know, I'm so sorry. Um, I just want to. I'm not saying that this is an excuse or anything, but I just want to let you know, like I really was, this was happening and this thing happened, and then this triggered me and this is why I was feeling this way, and then you guys kind of just got the, the residue of whatever else the shortcoming of it and that my withdrawal wasn't, it had nothing to do with you, wasn't just me?
Speaker 3:and so on and so forth. Right, and then they were like yeah, but right, yeah, but just because you have this sad story and just because and it wasn't like I had multiple of these, I think this was the first time Just because you have a sad story and just because you don't have parents, it doesn't mean that your problems are any more bigger than ours, or that gives you the latitude to be, to act any way that you want. And I was like wait pause.
Speaker 2:How did you?
Speaker 3:handle that first. So I I kind of went into like trying to explain. I was like, where is this coming from? Because I I this is literally the first time if, like one, I'm telling you the story. This is the first time I'm telling you why it's happening. Secondly, this is the first time I've acted out of character, right, which is why I felt the need to address it. So where is it coming from? Yeah, so I I kind of got defensive at first and then I went into that retreat and like I want to be like shut down again. So I kind of was just like you know what I'm so sorry like. And then later on it also came back.
Speaker 3:There was a lot of issues in that friendship to begin with. But, um, yeah, yeah and and I, we didn't end up by being friends past, like I wouldn't say like freshman, sophomore year of um, sophomore year of college, but I remember having that conversation and being like wow, like if I do, I'm doomed. If I do doomed if I don't, because if I tell people, people might think that, um, I'm telling them for sympathy purposes and if I don't tell people and I am having these emotions like maybe, like I might be withdrawn and maybe I don't want to communicate, maybe whatever these things, then they won't understand and therefore they're going to like not like me because of these things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think, in a sense, that you are being able to be understanding of the people that's in your life and being able to kind of prepare them for the times that you may feel overwhelmed and difficulty navigating this grief. Yeah, and then so to that, that a lot of people don't have the emotional capacity to create a safe space for you yeah, so they kind of weaponize what you're saying in a negative way. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think that is really frustrating itself and how that happens, which is difficult itself to know, and I now I've kind of go ahead.
Speaker 3:No, I was just going to say because you remember how I said, your personality changes, yeah, a lot more than normally other people. Yeah, so you know how. I add, I talked about how, in at first you retreat and then I threw my my, threw myself in and wanting to be liked and all of these things, and then what happens afterwards is that we get really good at disconnection. Yeah, I am. I used, I'm so good at like cutting people off because now you're shutting down, now I'm shutting down, right, so I'm cutting people off and I can literally. People are still like shocked when I say, like, because I have like a tolerance level that's higher than other people, but then if somebody's kind of like you know you've been vulnerable and you're coming to them and then somebody says something like that to you.
Speaker 2:I think you're doing the emotional response appropriately, the way you know how, by retrieving and shutting down.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but sometimes it's not even appropriate. And I like to say this because I like to give people a disclaimer, just so that, like I feel like because I've had a lot of time to work on this with, with my therapist, and we talk about a lot about how sometimes it's very easy for me to just do a guillotine and cut severed relationships. Yeah, because for me, like I said, I've lost, I know what loss is, so it's like whatever this is Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just like. Yeah, it's a protective. This is mechanism, right? Yeah, it's just like. Yeah, it's a protective mechanism for you to feel safe to feel safe.
Speaker 3:If you make me feel unsafe, you're gone and you won't even realize how fast you got gone and you are not worse than me being an orphan.
Speaker 2:Yes, right I already been there exactly what is the yeah, yeah, if you're gone out of my life, I think that's fair, but I do want to kind of switch the gear now that you are a parent and I wonder what that conversation for you as well. I'm shifting a gear, so I want your brain to be kind of meet me a little bit there. It's like what, what is practically you and your husband kind of talk about? This experience is kind of like what does it mean for us and how do we kind of create our just talk about this conversation a little bit more, yeah, and so we can kind of talk about what can parents who is in your shoes like yourself would do for their kids in having this conversation, without feeling like, oh, this is far away, we shouldn't be worrying about this versus you know, this is a practical life.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Can I go just a couple of steps back before parents to relationships? So I feel like I'm speaking as an orphan to orphans, right, and maybe someone that is loving an orphan and in a relationship with an orphan. I feel like one thing that orphans we should know is that before we get into relationships we have to do really thorough introspection and really thorough work with therapists, with, you know, going to and finding anchors elsewhere, Because most of us, you know, we lost our two big anchors and therefore we're searching the world for some other connection Anchor is such a therapy language I just want to name that Anchor is therapy.
Speaker 2:There's an actual modality called anchor therapy and that I'm currently getting trained myself. But like every time you talk about anchor, I'm like that's therapy language. Good on you therapist Good on you, therapist, but continue.
Speaker 3:So I feel like if we don't do the introspection, if we don't do the internal work and heal parts of ourselves that probably will never really truly heal all the way, but find a way to medicate in the healthiest way to help to understand hey, these things that I am doing, that I really don't like about myself, are symptoms of this. So this is how I can mitigate that right and being able to do that before we get into any serious relationships, because if we don't do that, we will end up being in spaces that are super vulnerable to abuse, to domestic violence, because we like, like I said, the idea we're hoping that person, that person to fill that space, we're hoping that this person is our person, and we're so scared of losing people that sometimes we hold on to things that are literally setting us on fire. Yeah, and so I say make sure that you do the work before you entertain.
Speaker 3:You understand yourself, you understand yourself before you entertain a serious relationship and while you are, and then also being a very direct communicator with your significant other, to be like, hey, this is how I show up, this is who I am. These are the things that I experienced and this is the symptoms that I have because of these things. Right, like for me, me and my husband had to have that conversation a long time ago before we had kids and, like I said, my mom passed away giving birth right when I got pregnant with my son actually all three of my children got pregnant with my son actually all three of my children. I go into this sphere of paranoia. My son was completely different, my oldest.
Speaker 3:I literally thought I was going to die, so I was making videos for my son just in case if I pass away, just so that he could see. You know, like these like stories and like I was literally talking to him, where the videos that he could almost like instead of letters. I was doing videos for every year of his birthday. I was communicating how much I love him and all of these things in this video is just prepping to that and if I'm dead, you know and um, so I make again having this communication, so your husband and your or your wife knows why, how you're going to show up in the marriage. It's again you have to be partially, partially.
Speaker 2:Like you said, having those conversations are important because it's part, you know, and, and I think it's like sometimes we're looking for people in our life to co -parent our inner child, and I think our husband do that, our friends do that and we try to do that, and when you have kids, you try to parent your kid and then trying to parent yourself in the process, because there are some memories that will be triggered because you didn't get that, and so it's like how, collectively, when you understand your emotion, you work through those things, you're a lot more in tune, how you show up in different spaces as this vulnerable being that you are, because your wound is actually being opened every single time by the specific kind of triggers, and so I do think that by you kind of talking to your husband prior to that, it's also kind of opened the gate to having the conversation, which is the question that I asked her in the air.
Speaker 3:So that's yeah, so you have the we had. So when I got pregnant, we had to have this conversation and he didn't like. He thought I was like what? And I was like, no, we have to have a conversation about who's taking care of our kids. We have to have a conversation about where we're. Who do we trust? Like, what are we giving to our? Like life insurance? Right, like, making sure that, who is um going to be in charge of their trust? Right, having a trust, because there's a big difference between having a will and having a trust. Does our, do our communities know that? You know, just because you write something and say and put it on your, on your um, on your safety box, it doesn't necessarily mean that's how it's going to happen after you pass away. Yeah, because the courts will get involved, right, and but you, if you have a trust, it's a completely different situation having a trust versus having a will.
Speaker 3:Making sure that, okay, talking to that third party you plan to leave your kids with, right, making sure that that person is one, willing. Two, is someone that is capable, emotionally capable, you know, is. Are they similar to the way you know you would raise them? Right? Do they love them right, will they love them? Because, to be honest, just because they are your sister, just because they are your brother, it doesn't mean that they're going to be fair and just and love them the way you would think they would.
Speaker 3:And you also have to understand the way people treat your kids while you're here is completely different than the way they will treat your kids when you're not there, no more. So you have to make sure that these people that you're living, leaving your kids with, are. So we had that conversation right and then going really deep into talking to these people, making sure that they're ready. One thing I really again I I like to take stuff from every different culture I interact with is that I these have is the idea of, um, godfather and godmothers right, and that is basically a contract or like an understanding that if something happens to me, you're gonna be taking care of my kids yeah, I don't, I haven't seen a lot of that in our community. And then also as parents, okay, if I die and you're here, how are you going to be? You know, taking care of our children, uh, or vice versa? You know, there is I. I read this statistic.
Speaker 3:I think it was like, and I might be wrong, but I think it was like 65 to 75, 65 or 75% of men, men that raised their like they raised their stepchildren have at one point or another, had a thought about that child in a sexual manner, and not necessarily, and I think you guys can look it up and my numbers might be off, but that was very scary. So having that conversation of and not just even like, maybe not, it's not even a sexual issue, maybe it's a fairness issue, yeah, maybe it's safety, you know yeah, like safety in the sense like, are they emotionally safe?
Speaker 3:they might be sexually like saving that person might not touch them or anything, but are they gonna abuse them? Right, like all of it. So me and my husband have a very clear understanding that if our, if one of us, passes, the other one is gonna have to tough it out for until the kids leave. Really literally, if, until the kids leave college and they are independent, you have to tough it out. You can't be a single, be a single parent and that's another. Because that is that is the way, like I know, guys think, oh, you know, I'm gonna bring this wife and she's gonna be the mom that like no, nobody's gonna be able to fill that space but do you think that's kind of fair?
Speaker 2:though there are, that's there are good.
Speaker 3:There are good, yes, there are um, but again, yeah, I I'm not saying I'm not dissing step parents. I have no, no um data about step parent relationship. I'm just talking about the conversation that we had and I think it the the point that we need to talk about is not necessarily the conversation that I had, but having the conversation Right, having, like, how are we going to navigate this If I pass away? How are you going to parent our children? Who's going to be your support system? Who's going to be my support system? You know, and all of these things, and just making sure that it's very, very like written and also with passwords, right, making sure you, you have all your passwords and all your things in one safe space so that, um, so that people, if you both are gone, can this person that you trust knows exactly where to go to be able to access these funds, to be able to talk to the right people what do you feel like there are in this area, like there is a do's and don't you think as in somebody who's?
Speaker 2:you know yourself as an orphan and you know what that experience is like, and both how should people treat an orphan and how, as a parent, you should be preparing? Those are two questions, so how do you think that should be provided?
Speaker 3:um, how do people? I think, as a community, we should have, like as a community, we should have either the muslim community, muslim masjids, um or the audible community, or east african community. I think each community should have a space where people can come to for help. And I think like and I'm very critical, it's because I am very I love our community so much I feel like sometimes I am a little bit harsh and critical of that, but like our audible community centers or you know the Ethiopian community center or you know whatever that it might be, instead of it being just a space for Oromo nights and whatever other activities, having very constructive spaces or like where people can go for help hey, you need therapy. Here are and from we have an information center at the oromo community center, you know, here in the masjid, making sure that, like there are funds.
Speaker 3:You know what about? Like not everybody can afford life insurance, right, some people, most of our community members and most americans are living paycheck to paycheck. So, okay, if something happens, how can we help? How can we consistently be able to help people? Oh, are we able to have like a fund so that we can maybe, you know, assure that this, like this mom and this child now, all of a sudden that just lost their parent. You know their breadwinner are able to survive for at least three months. You know, having some sort of like structure and system to help our community as parents, um, as parents, I think again, making sure that you have set your children up financially, if you are able to do so. I know this is a privileged conversation to have, but like being able to like, hey, who's gonna take care of my kid if I die? Having that conversation with the person you plan to have to leave your child with. Making sure that any money that you have you have someone you know the other person has access to after you pass away, they know exactly where to go to pull this thing out. Um, making sure that you have like honest conversations with your kids, like of like, hey, I just want to let you know I love you and again, that also depends on age right, it has to be an age appropriate conversation.
Speaker 3:But like making sure you tell them you love them enough you have you spend every day, because one of the things is that I'm really, really grateful for is that whenever I felt I was less than whenever I felt unloved. Whenever I felt like I had this vacancy in my spirit, I always could go back to those memories that I had with my parents, them telling me how much they loved me, them telling me how much they loved me, showing me how much they loved me. These little memories that I told you about, like these quality times that I spent with them, and I can literally go back and say you know, they didn't have the option to go, they got taken right, but while they were here, they did everything that they could to show me that they loved me, I was loved, I was wanted, I was appreciated, and that that is such a fundamental thing to stand on. I think it's that.
Speaker 3:No, one can take away all that too, because, like you know you felt loved, you know you felt seen, you know you what that feels like yeah even though some places in the world doesn't show you that you had it yeah, yeah, even in in my most darkest depressed moments, right like that was something that I could hold on to when, so that I just making sure not just you leave your kids with money and blah, blah, blah material things, but like those emotional things that they can hold on to when you're not here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do want to kind of add a couple of things about dues is like providing emotional support and mentorship support. I mean it's like mentorships, like people who can kind of provide that void for those kids. You know what I mean, not even in a sense of like they're never going to replace anybody that they lost, but just kind of physically being present the way your aunt and uncles were to you, you know, and showing up the best way, you know. And then I think we can do more by understanding how to be supportive emotionally there, yeah, how to allow the safe space to be seen by those kids, to show them like it's okay that they're feeling what they're feeling, that they do have a safe space.
Speaker 2:And I think part of it is also kind of understanding like how do we kind of manage and understand the ignorance things that we have as a community and be aware of the conversation that we say to kids, right, part of the do is like be aware of the conversation that we say to kids, right, part of the do is like be aware of the word that come out of your mouths, because it sticks to them and they hear it very sharply and so. And then part of the don't is like please don't be sympathetic to doors, orphan and be aware of what you say, what you do, because they're not looking for your sympathy. Yeah, but if you can provide empathy and compassion and be there for them. But sympathy is more like asking for information. That's not. You don't need to know. You don't need to know, you don't have the privileges to know this information. If the person felt like they want to share, carry it with the privilege that you were in that space, yeah, and I also want to say something.
Speaker 3:Right Sometimes, the privilege that you are in that space, yeah, and I also want to say something right. Sometimes they do want to share.
Speaker 3:Sometimes they are at that space where they want to have that conversation. So, like, just read the room, I guess is the best thing, because sometimes I know that when I don't want people to pretend like my mom didn, to pretend like my mom didn't exist, my dad didn't exist, I want them to be able to have that conversation, you know, um, lastly, I would like to say one of the do's that I would suggest is that make sure you invite people, make sure you make space for them. You know, like, if you know someone that has lost parents, a wife that lost a husband now that she has kids, that, or a husband that has lost the, please just step a little bit outside of your norm and like, include them into things. Right, make a life, make one day less lonely, yeah, right, just make that one day less lonely for them.
Speaker 3:Make, make, include them, have them in the space. There's nothing, because and I think having noise around you sometimes it's so helpful because it drowns out, like I said, the echo of these spaces, that these vacancies right and so enough that until they get the strength to be able to handle the echo, to be able to handle the black space that is there now or the blank space that's there now. So just be there enough to a point where, until they can be there by themselves, absolutely, you know, yeah, I think being very, very thoughtful, like being available, is important, yeah.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for allowing me to be in this space with you and sharing this. I felt everything that you were feeling, so I'm honored to hear these stories again and again and I'm always grateful for this experience with you. And I'm also grateful that I get to see how much your emotional strength has been grown over years and being able to understand the complicity of your experiences and still talk about it with so much courage and bravery, and I just want to acknowledge that as we close up on today's episode.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you for being in this space with me and in my life. You know the last couple of years.
Speaker 2:So listeners, thank you so much for listening to us today. Please take this conversation to the depth of understanding. What is it like to be an Oromo and Muslim, and generally as a Muslim community? How can we be able to be better to one another, specifically with orphans? And the way that Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi sallam talked about is how we treat the orphan, is the way that he sees us, and so be mindful, be kind, be gentle, be courageous and find a community ways that maybe one of you, the listeners out there, can start nonprofit organization where we can kind of volunteer and support and be there for one another.
Speaker 2:The way Bonnie was sharing, it's like we need to show up, we need to be available to one another, and part of that is how can we do differently, better than our parents are done, and how can we do differently? So I think we're better together and we do better if we collectively are there for one another, because the aspect of the pain would just slowly decreases and beautifully Bonnie shared partially for the parents out there. Please have conversation with your spouse and partners and make sure that this is not something that is stigmatized or ignored or avoid, and this is something that is reality, with life, to constantly have this conversation. So it gets easier the more we continue to provide cares for your amazing children. So I really want to appreciate everybody for listening today.
Speaker 1:Until next time, this is difficult conversations, y'all join the conversation in the comment section or on our instagram page to share with us what you think. We do not have all the answers and our biggest goal is to kick off and get the conversation going. May Allah accept our efforts and use us as catalysts for change.