Difficult Conversations
Difficult Conversations
Divorce Doesn't Mean You Failed
Divorce affects our communities deeply yet remains a topic shrouded in shame and misunderstanding despite its prevalence and our Islamic tradition that address it.
• Approximately 40% of marriages in America end in divorce, with lack of commitment cited as a primary cause
• Many couples spend time planning weddings but fail to discuss day-to-day realities of marriage
• Dr. Gottman's research shows respect and dignity issues predict divorce 94% of the time
• Critical relationship breakdown patterns include criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling
• Children of divorced parents face increased risks of behavioral problems, mental health issues, and physical health concerns
• The grieving process after divorce includes mourning not just the relationship but extended family connections
• Community members should offer support rather than judgment to divorced individuals
• Taking time to heal and process through therapy can be valuable before considering remarriage
• Divorced individuals deserve compassion and understanding, not gossip or tabloidization
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As-salamu alaykum, welcome to Difficult Conversations where we tackle taboo topics in a safe space through empowerment and education. Hi everybody, welcome back. Today we are going to be tackling divorce in our community and as a podcast we like to talk a lot about relationships and you know how to get into one and what happens. So today we wanted to just go into what's going on in the community in terms of divorce and how this has affected us as a whole. To start us off, I wanted to kind of go into some statistics of the wider community.
Speaker 1:So in America in 2024, so this year so divorce rates are at 40% and according to the National Fatherhood Initiative National Survey of Marital Strengths the National Fatherhood Initiative National Survey of Marital Strengths one of the key things that they list as causes or things leading into divorce is a lack of commitment, where, like, one or two of the partners feel unprepared or committed. And I would say, like anecdotally, this is probably what I see a lot too, just talking to people who know, people who have gone through this and I don't have, you know, a lot of anything to back this up in terms of like case studies or anything like that but it seems like people are divorcing early on. You know, I would say within the first like year or a year and a half early on. You know out there within the first like year or year and a half, um, so I'm wondering if that has been the case for you guys, um, and what are we thinking about that?
Speaker 2:Um, early on divorce? I don't know that much. I mean, it makes sense to be honest, especially within our community.
Speaker 2:Um, I have, um, I think, the first year of my marriage I had a lot of friends that got married around the same time and, even though my circle is pretty small, like they would tell me about their friends that they got married and they had a completely different understanding of you know, they didn't talk about like the married couple, didn't talk about in detail what to expect from the marriage or what it's that marriage was supposed to look like. Therefore, they were in for a shock when they got in there. They were in for a shock when they got in there and there, you know, there's that idea of like. So, yes, I have had a lot of anecdotal stories that I've heard of people kind of just calling it quits right after Because, like I said, the lack of pre-marital conversations about marriage, about and I think there's a lot of times people spend a lot of time talking about the wedding, the nikah, the party, the honeymoon and planning all of that and not a lot about, like, the nitty gritty everyday life of marriage.
Speaker 3:I think our previous conversation we talked about relationship and courting and what does that look like.
Speaker 3:Even we talked about our season two or three as well, and how couples are exposed to marriage early on in their, you know, as an adolescent, a young person, and exposure to marriage from their own family members. And that previous episode kind of brought some things that you know related to this today's conversation, which is what is divorce like for a lot of people and, culturally and traditionally Islamically, how do we kind of maneuver through that and when the exposure of relationship it looks different for every household? I think one of the things that I also kind of notice in a therapy platform and as a therapist knowing that when people come to therapy usually they don't do pre-med or counseling and trying to understand what does this relationship entail for me? How do I navigate through the heart and the ease, the day-to-day, the conflict resolutions, navigating responsibilities, financial understanding those things doesn't really come up except a fantasy idea of getting married and being part of the club of being married. The title sometimes feels really good for many people because everybody around you is doing it and marriage is the one aspect of relationship that is praised. If you're not in that club, you are looked in a specific way that you're not.
Speaker 3:Something is off with you and I wonder if we are actually thinking about marriage as in a sense of like family, two people coming together to establish family and relationships, versus kind of taking it as like I haven't done my own hard work of my own baggages or challenges that I deal with in life and I'm coming to this relationship sometime also expecting this person to kind of heal me through those things or hoping to fix some of the things that I'm dealing with. And I think that first year relationship is probably is part of that is where, like people are kind of having preconceived notion of what relationship and marriage is supposed to look like. Is it like dating or is it like day-to-day life and how do we kind of connect and talk to each other? And so I wonder for you two who are married, what was the first the beginning adjustment was like for you, and then maybe kind of go through talking about the reality of what other families and individuals go through divorce.
Speaker 1:So I guess what I'm hearing you say is that we are people who are going into marriage are just they're not ready for marriage and they haven't done the necessary work required to, whether it's their traumas or all of the inner work that they have to do. So then, when they get into a relationship with somebody they're not able to do well in that adjustment period is what I'm hearing you say. Do you think there's something else going on? Because I think you know, even looking back when I, when I was getting married, um, I would say that I was pretty naive, definitely, um, and but I, but I, I wouldn't say that, regardless of how, um, any issues that might arise, I wouldn't say that divorce would be like, easily pronounced for myself. Okay, does that make sense, right? So I'm wondering if there's something wider going on that's affecting young people today that are getting married, and why is it? Easily, people are just calling it quits.
Speaker 2:I have two thoughts about that. I think the first thing is that, yes, we, especially for the diaspora, we are living in a space where people are like the 40% that we're talking about specifically, 40% that we're talking about specifically. I wonder how much of that is in that data collected is our people. That might not even encompass the Oremon East African community. It might even be higher yeah, east African community, right, because we don't necessarily participate in data and censuses like that. So, saying that Iuses like that, so saying that I feel like that 40 percent has a huge influence, and also the sanctity of uh, relationships, the sanctity of marriage is a lot more um, diluted now, um, there I. The reason why I say that it's not like me trying to be cynical or anything, but there's's either, there's two routes people go, and I think it's one is that I think people get married for honorable reasons, to not commit sin, right, so they're trying to like just, either the parents are trying like they see this guy and this girl are talking to each other and their parents are like let's get them together so that at least we protect them from that, but then, while in that process they don't never, the parents never really stop and like have a conversation with them about how they're supposed to um engage to. Actually, me and my husband were having this conversation just so that I could get prepped for this meeting, this um podcast, and we were having the conversation about gender roles, right, and I think in our parents' age or in our grandparents' age, there was expectation and, yes, they didn't have premarital counseling, they didn't have therapists at the time. But if you look at times back then and I'm not looking at it with rose colored glasses, because even in those days and those marriages have problems, right, but there's this idea that people go into it knowing that what is expected of them, knowing that what they're supposed to bring to the table, knowing that, like um, being the head of the house doesn't have anything to do with monetary values given to you by god, right, um, being the neck of the house doesn't have to do anything to do with, again, your, your femininity or masculinity. It has to do a lot about by the role given to you by god. There's, like these are roles ordained by god and therefore the community understands that. You know, the married people understand that. So when they go into these things they have it's not competition. Everybody's kind of just like going into the role that they feel comfortable in and they feel like, okay, I can do this. And then, even if, like, this guy is not bringing in you know, the money, even if I am going to work to help, you know, fund the household, that doesn't make that this guy is not the head of the household. Just because you know he's, you know, staying at home and taking care of the family, it doesn't mean I'm not the heart and I'm not you know, like there's a lot more of my understanding and my perspective is, seeing from an outside perspective is that there's a lot more competition when there doesn't need to be.
Speaker 2:There's a lot more misunderstanding of people's roles. There's a lot, a lot more misunderstanding of what compromise looks like, uh, what um, marriage even looks like, what happiness looks like, what is the purpose. And sometimes I feel like, um, looks like what happiness looks like, what is the purpose? And sometimes I feel like, um, people go into marriage seeking happiness and they don't realize happiness is a roller coaster. Sometimes you're really happy, sometimes you're not so happy and, um, if you're always seeking and like, searching for, like you're in the pursuit of happiness and when, the minute you don't have that minute, you're not in that bliss space, you're going to get disappointed. But if you're in the pursuit of happiness and the minute you don't have that minute, you're not in that bliss space, you're going to get disappointed. But if you're not staying there, holding onto this thing for something greater than happiness, you know, then it's easy for you to exit because there's no more happiness anymore for that specific amount of time. And the last thing I want to say about this is that, like I remember, like I um remember, like this interview Michelle Obama gave about her marriage and she was saying like, uh, for the eight years of their marriage, she was very unhappy and she was just like, but she was staying in the marriage because she knew who she married.
Speaker 2:Uh, the person was a kind person. The person was like, you know, she loved the person. The person was doing the best that they can to. You know, her husband was doing the best that he can to be able to be there. It's just that they weren't clicking at the time. So they there had and they were, you know, they had bigger things that they were married for, including their children, and they loved each other and it was technically a healthy marriage, right, and it's just that at that moment they weren't seeing eye to eye. So she was able to endure that eight years because of the bigger picture. And then obviously when they got out of that rut it became roses and butterflies and whatever. But then for most people how many people stick through eight years of rut?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I will say that in our older generation it is true that you know, they knew their expectations and what they're supposed to be doing in the marriage. But I also want to point out that in a lot of those cases the women didn't necessarily have the agency. You know, even if they wanted to leave the marriage, they might have been tied to the guy for money or culturally. You know, it's like sacrifice. We don't necessarily tell them up front, but we kind of it's an unspoken rule, kind of that, you know, sacrifice your happiness so that at least see your kids through it. Yeah, you know, and so I think one of the things that is happening today is that women no longer need that financial support. And I say that to say that you know it's. I feel like we're kind of on the outskirts of two extremes and we definitely need to come back to the middle, because sometimes, just because you can leave, it might not necessarily be the right thing to do so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think, just to go back a little bit into the understanding and courtship and marriage that Habih had brought up, I think the idea of talking things before you get married in excessive way to you know. Obviously, you know, once you get into it it's going to be different. Some of that, some of the things are going to be different, but once you start talking about things, you understand. Okay, this is how so-and-so grew up, this is how I grew up. This is what he saw being modeled as marriage and this is what I saw. How did these things come together?
Speaker 2:What are our expectations of marriage? What is my expectation of my husband? What is her expectation of his wife? Marriage, what is my expectation of my husband? This, what is her expectation of his wife? Um, what are the things that? Uh, how do we plan on rearing our children? How do who? Who's expected to be the breadwinner of the family? You know, does that matter? Who does? Does the wife wants to stay at home and take care of the child and, if so, how are we going to make it work? You know, what is our long-term future, like, you know, what does that look like? Also, like, do we want a nanny? Do we like you?
Speaker 3:you know do we not want a?
Speaker 2:nanny. How do we interact with our in-laws? How much do we involve our in-laws, you know? So you might be really close to your family and he might not be really close to his family. So how do we get you know, like, all of these things, the minutiae of things, having even things you don't feel like are important how many times you know who's gonna do the dishes in the house? All right, how do we divide house chores? Uh, how do we take it?
Speaker 2:Because, like, unless you have these conversations ahead of time, before you are married, when you are in there you're going to be navigating the world with expectations that are not spoken. And then you're thinking, where you guys have the same understanding but you don't. So, like you know, the guy might be thinking oh, you know she, this is her responsibility to take care of household chores because I go to work, but then you have an understanding that that is, you know, um a communal responsibility, and he might not be doing it to be hurtful or mean, or you know what it's called um misogynist, but you might perceive his inaction as misogyny. So, like you know, I think uncommunicated thoughts and expectations are one of the biggest deterrents and dissolvers of marriage. So I think having these communications ahead of time, and if we can do it in a way in a space that is in a counselor's, you know's room, that would be great, because then that's a controlled space. But then if you can do it outside of that too, that would be better.
Speaker 2:I mean not better, but that would be good too.
Speaker 3:So one of the things that I notice as a marriage sometimes couples- therapists or individual therapists is that usually people come to therapy.
Speaker 3:Individual therapist is that usually people come to therapy. Usually the woman come to therapy at the rope of the end of relationship, I feel like for me. So which me bringing up that point. I'm going to bring out something else is that there is a psychologist name is Dr Gottman. He specifically focused on couples therapy, that's him and his wife. They specifically focus on the aspect of what Ashley predicts 94% of marriage to be.
Speaker 3:Divorce is usually not even the thing that we expect, right, it's like it's not financial, it's not that somebody else's trauma, it's simply a respect and dignity. And the way he talks about is that he kind of talks about four areas and five areas I think is one of them is like harsh startup, like when they first a couple, when they first get together, what would that look like in their own first adjustment to the relationship, which is what I was bringing up early on, and then when, as the relationship progress, some of the things that comes up is that how do we navigate through conflict? Or even a feedback Like criticism is a big one, contempt is a big one, defensiveness is a big one, stonewalling is a big one. Stonewalling is like silent treatments, when argument arises and one person is an anxious and the other person is an avoidance. When argument arises and one person's an anxious and the other person is an avoidance, and they leave the environment and they don't actually come back and have the conversation again. Um, and body language is like being very and like you know what I mean just kind of very like negatively, not responding, engaging to that person. And then another thing that he talks about is that failures to repair the, the attempt of what happened Right when avoidance happened, the situation happened. You have this big argument and then all of a sudden, you don't come back and address it and talk about how it affected you, how this person got affected, and repair that. So in the future, if we do have another different type of conflict, we know how to do it. In the future, if we do have another different type of conflict, we know how to do it.
Speaker 3:Another one is that holding on to bad memory. This is something that I also see and all of this is I've been noticing it because I usually see one partner and then I recommend it to a couple of therapists is that there is constant holding on to the past. Right, there's a specific incident, that somebody in that relationship is not willing to let it go. It can be like I didn't want to live in Minnesota and you made me stay here, right, I wanted to live in this place and you didn't even listen to me then. And then that memory comes up in the same conversation of things that arises.
Speaker 3:So when, by the time, the relationship person comes like well, when I first started I kind of took on a lot of responsibility this is what I hear from an individual. I took on a lot of responsibilities. I was doing the all-day emotional laboring. I was taking care of his feeling, my feelings, the kid's feeling, and is still doing all the work. I don't get a lot of help and he constantly tells me that I'm not doing this and this and this, right, and then I get really exhausted and I become very numb to it.
Speaker 3:And now I don't even have emotionally actively present in the relationship because all I want to do is like some days I think about would it be easier if I can do this by myself, right? So one of those things that I'm noticing that comes up and those are the things that as someone who's single right would never realize. This is the reason why people get divorced. I thought it would be like obvious stuff, like money and abuse and some things like, like you know for a fact, the reason. But I've never thought that dignity, integrity and respect is the reason why people are like I can't do this, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that makes a lot of sense because even me, like, there are certain things where, like it's on your mind sometimes, you know and it will affect regardless of if you want to. It's on your mind sometimes, you know, and it will affect regardless of if you want to Say you had a big argument. The next day I can almost tell that I'm still thinking about what we've argued about before, because our interactions are a little bit tainted and you know I'm holding on to something. And the crazy thing is, for people who tend to live in you know your head, which I think is a lot of women we take apart certain situations and we're constantly nitpicking at it and stuff like that At least that's what I do and on the other side your husband probably doesn't even know anything about it.
Speaker 3:He's just living his best life.
Speaker 1:But these things kind of build up over time and I can definitely see how one day you're just going to be like I'm over it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm like emotionally numb to this aspect of conflict and I think when we're talking about this conversation today, it's like, well, if this is what's kind of developing and like boiling up in the couple's relationship, what happens to the kids who expose that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's where. That's where I was going to go. Next is that a lot of times women tend to stay for the kids point. Is divorce better than staying and having your kids exposed to all of this like passive aggressiveness and and and all that stuff?
Speaker 2:I mean sorry I, I I had a point. Uh, for the, you know fight languages a little bit just to go back a little bit.
Speaker 2:Um, when we, when we're talking about fight languages and we were talking about fight languages and you guys were talking about, like you know, nitpicking and so on and so forth, I think again, I always go back to having you know. If it happens once, shame on us. If it happens, you know, like you know twice, then it's a problem, meaning that if you don't understand that you, if something is unaddressed or something is unspoken and you're spending the next day, not you specifically, that's fine, I do, I will sit on it and I will dissect it and I'll take it to the hell, like I will just go and like atomically, I will dissect it to that point and be like what did he mean about that? He turned this way when he looked like this and he said this, and he said that and his tone elevated and his voice was a little bit high and he, you know, he was looking at his phone. So that means all of that, right? So, and like you said, he's just like I said what I said, and that's it. It's very plain and simple and whatever I think, if whoever it could be the man and it could be the woman who dissects stuff right. It's our responsibility Because, again, we're working.
Speaker 2:For one thing married couples have to understand is that it's not about you, it's not about him, it's not about the egos and the prides of the individual person, but it's about protecting that unity, protecting that thing that you guys are building together. And if that means that your misunderstanding, if that person's intention, is going to derail the success of this thing, then you have to be introspective enough to be like, okay, I am taking it places, but he might be just chilling and not have any idea of where I'm taking it. So let me pause. Stop, because all of these things that are driving, at least for me, was my insecurities, it was my trauma, it was like my abandonment issues, my anxiety, attachment, right, all of these things. So I have to be like, okay, I am projecting a lot of my issues onto this specific issue. Therefore, let me pause. Let me ask questions, right, let me be curious about where he's standing. What did he mean when he? Or what does she mean when she's asking, when she said these things? When she grows, what grows, what was coming up for her?
Speaker 2:Again, that takes a lot of patience and a lot of like, um, uh, I want to say selflessness, but then again, you're not doing it for you, you're not doing it for him, you're doing it for that unity, that thing that you're building together right. So, by being curious and by stopping yourself from going down the drain, you say okay, I understand that you want to walk away from this conversation. I understand that this is not like. You are not someone that wants to tackle something right away.
Speaker 2:But I just want to tell you that if we walk away from this conversation or from this issue for far too long, I'm going to have 10,000 more points about this one thing you know, because I have spent time dissecting it, so I'll give you like I'll be happy, what, what time works for you? Let's compromise. Okay, you know you want to have like an hour of a break. Cool, I'll, I'll try to settle my mind for an hour. I'll watch a movie, whatever it is, and then let's come back to this, because then you're not going to be answering. If it's more than that, you're not going to be answering for this one issue, it's going to be for the 10,000 issues that I brought up dissecting the situation. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:Yeah, In that situation, right, it's never about the issue, though. Right, it's never about the. The things that you've been dissecting is how you felt in that experiences, right, and I think what one of the repairment of the relationship is like I'm sorry that I didn't really pay attention to you, even though it's not about like, oh this, don't give me excuses of why you were not you, you probably were not right. I'm sorry that I wasn't paying attention. I I need to do better. Right, that's the repairment that was supposed to be needed, and I think what I was trying to bring out is that the anxious people, which is a lot of the clients that I work with, is that they don't know how to do the repairment. Right, they don't know how to talk about. What am I really mad about? Is it how he looked? Is it what he said? Yeah, it's a feeling, is something that I'm familiar with feeling this way. Yeah, and he's triggering that again. Yeah, and, but I'm not blaming him. I'm hoping he understands to say something but I'm
Speaker 1:sorry about that. Yeah, also I think it. It you have to get to that point to recognize it, like I think, as a person. Right, but that's what Bonnie said. Yeah. Introspection, right, yeah, but what if you're not even there yet, though you know what I mean? Yes, that too, yeah. You come to a marriage and you are inexperienced. You're young, whatever color, whatever it is, you know, you don't even, you can't even, you can't even put words to what you're feeling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, I think you know, sorry to cut you off.
Speaker 2:Go ahead, it's fine, go ahead. No, I was going to say that yes, like when you are there. I think one thing that helped me is that you have to understand that when you're walking in, whatever environment you're walking into, how inexperienced you are, how much knowledge you have, because it's okay to say you know what. I really wasn't prepared for this. I'm kind of winging this. But if you're winging it like the first month, cool. If you're still winging it in two years in, then it's a problem.
Speaker 2:Meaning I am really really big in personal accountability. We can only control what we do as individuals, right, and how we contribute to the either the construction or deconstruction of anything right. So I and I say this because and I'm not trying to like point fingers or anything, because I have also an anxious attachment and I have also these things that I bring up and that come up for me but I have to be able to take a deep breath and be like, okay, which part of this, like the habe said, am I really? And that comes from looking outside of yourself, looking into, like reading books, listening to to podcasts, like making sure that you know, because you know they say that the person that knows they don't know is a student. Teach them Right. So if you don't know, and you don't know that you don't like, you don't know what to find out.
Speaker 1:But what if you don't know? That you don't know is what I'm asking. You know what I mean, because I think a lot of us, that's the thing. No, no because we're talking to our community.
Speaker 1:Right, like, I think, the vast majority of East Africans, they've seen how their parents do relationships. You know, and I don't know about you guys, but the relationships that I've seen in my circles, my friends or whatever, it's not like. A lot of them are not healthy. Yes, you know, you're like our parents, like yeah, yeah, you, you didn't see good conflict resolution, yeah, you didn't see emotion, you didn't see a healthy way to resolve issues. So then you get into a marriage and if, if you don't have like you're as good as what you're exposed to yes, you know what I mean yeah, so if you, if you don't, if you don't know what books to read, you don't know, like how to even go about it, then you're, you're kind of like you. You have to wing it yes.
Speaker 2:So I think for these people.
Speaker 1:I'm guessing if which are the vast majority.
Speaker 2:I would argue yes, so and if these people are either in our podcast, they're our listeners or something, I feel like the best place to start is that actually writing things down, saying like okay, I got, because you don't know we get it. You don't know that we don't know we get it. Okay, now you're listening to us. Well, I would say and I'm sure you know, in the habit you guys could, like I would say, write it down. Write down like I am upset.
Speaker 2:I'm upset because apsharo said a, b and c or, and why is this making me upset? What is that triggering? Okay, so apsharo said that my like, whatever I said wasn't so smart. Is that why I'm really upset? Because she said that, okay, then does that trigger something in me that makes me that thinks that I'm not a smart person? You know what I mean? Kind of just going into and where does that come from? Okay, so how can I have a conversation with Apsharo to let her know that that comment triggers a part of me that's very insecure about my intelligence? So next time, if she has something to say about, like something I said that wasn't really a smart decision or whatever, to kind of bring it up in a different way, you know what I mean. So like being able to write it down and break it down is a way to like start off.
Speaker 2:I think writing not writing it down to keep track of what your husband and wife said and keep receipt, but to kind of like, bring I call it, take your thoughts to court, and by writing it down I'm writing the pros and the cons and whys and the hows, and also giving people the benefit of the doubt.
Speaker 2:The doubt, that's the biggest advice is that giving people the benefit of the doubt and, like always moving from the space of, okay, I know in her heart Apsharo is not trying to hurt my feelings. I know she's not trying to, like you know, pound me in the head and make me feel such a type of way. Again, you might be married to someone that is trying to hurt your feelings and that's a completely different conversation. But you know, we're kind of moving from the best case scenario right, and saying like, okay, I'll give her this benefit of the doubt and then move and like, what is the things that I'm projecting into this issue? I think that's the one good, not solution, but one good exercise that I would recommend. What would you guys would say?
Speaker 3:What would you, what were you saying?
Speaker 1:What do you mean when you said they don't know what they don't know? Basically that, like they have an issue and they've had, they've never encountered it, or they haven't seen their parents go through it, right, so they just don't know what to do about it. Right, and you don't. You can't, like, come up with intelligent new answers if you don't have the exposure to it. That's what I mean.
Speaker 3:I think those are a good question, right. Um, I think here, as a therapist, I would kind of just let them to be curious about what they don't know right, this is a new issue. I don't have an answer for it. Yeah, even I can tell. I can sit with you and you come to me saying I don't know what I don't know, so I need you to give me an answer.
Speaker 1:Let's be curious about what you don't know.
Speaker 3:What's coming up for you? What are you noticing? Disinformation when else did you heard about this thing that happened? Who else do you know that, whether it's in person, social media or who else? Kind of talk about things. Right, I think today, today, today's relationship has so much resources, like when I say, so much reason. There's like so many free therapy out there that you don't even have to come to therapy office.
Speaker 1:Yet do you think that that's also like problematic? Yeah, because you have like all of these free resources, but without guidance, and it could really tip you over the edge too.
Speaker 3:But that guidance is like, it's about you now, right? Like, let's say, for example, my biggest challenge for me right now is that I want to move, but I don't know what to do about that. I don't know anybody who has moved, right. I don't know anybody who has done anything about that, right? So what do I do? I can find somebody on and social media that'll tell me oh, I moved this, but this I'm gathering information doesn't have to apply to me, doesn't have to apply to my situation.
Speaker 1:But no, what I'm saying is that sometimes like certain things out there about relationships, and it can be really toxic you know, like yes, it is, but that's also, you have to take your own discernment Right.
Speaker 3:Like, ok, I'm taking this and if, if, like some of the things that you talk about, it's like having slam as an anchor to kind of figure things out, is that OK? This toxic information doesn't really align with.
Speaker 1:Let me filter it. At least try to filter it, yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, it doesn't align with my value, but they're saying something that to do with my own experiences of childhood that's related to me, right, so I can leave what doesn't apply to me but I can take what might be helpful for me in this situation.
Speaker 2:Right. Yes, I think, because I'm having feelings come up when I hear like because, specifically with social media right now and this is very I can relate to this when it comes to like ADHD content that's out there and it feels like everybody is the new ADHD expert and I don't know why, because some people spoke it into existence in my world that you have it.
Speaker 3:I didn't exist. I just watch your behavior, and then that you pray, wait, wait, wait.
Speaker 2:This is news, go ahead no, I'm not diagnosed or anything, but like all of the sudden it's on my feed. Okay, because you know my phone is around, uh, when people are talking.
Speaker 3:So excuse me, you are feeding something and then you're blaming somebody else for it. No, no, no, okay, go back, go back.
Speaker 2:Long story short, the reason why I say this is like and then all of a sudden I see this content and then I'm like, oh wow, this applies to me, or this applies to me, or this doesn't apply to me. And then I kind of was just like doing research. Actually, like you know, there's feed and then there's research right, and then I there's research right, and then, um, I was talking also to my therapist and she's like don't do that, because there's a lot of like anecdotal stories that people tell, and just because you relate to that thing doesn't mean that they are experiencing that thing because of their ADHD. You know what I mean? That could be something different.
Speaker 2:And then there's also content creators that are just there to they take and nobody's fact-checking nothing Exactly. They take little of this thing, little of that thing, and they make it make it like really cool and really fun to listen to, or, oh wow, this is really this applies. It's very problematic. And then, when you apply into relationships, there are so many like people that that, again, like you said, there it's not fact-checked, you don't, we don't know their background, we don't know their emotional history, that we don't know their agenda. Don't you think both?
Speaker 3:fat can be like. Two things can be true at the same time, though that the same thing you can say about social media is like where it can be harmful but it can be helpful too. Oh, definitely.
Speaker 3:So, for people that we're talking about in a divorce situation, who has no idea about getting to therapy, right, like, getting to therapy itself is like climbing a mountain, and they need some sort of relief, they need to have understanding of their current situation. So then, what do we do for those people? Right, like, how do we kind of okay, this is information that's available, maybe this is where you can go to an expert if it doesn't really work for you? So I wonder if there is a balance of both and saying, hey, you're right, there is harmful information and people do edit and this is a place to start.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what we're saying at the end of it all is like taking everything with a grain of salt, you know even us, take us with a grain of salt, you know so that we're not the buy all be all and no, no, neither that should social media be the buy all be all.
Speaker 2:Right, I think that's the most like. I agree with you there is definitely a possibility and there's so many great things that can come out of social media. Definitely a possibility, and there's so many great things that can come out of social media, and it could be like a really good jumping off point. But it is a jumping off point. It's not like where you conclude your you know, no, yeah, it's not end all so we were talking about earlier how the relationship of couple affect children.
Speaker 3:yeah, right, and in the process of divorce, right. So this topic is about divorce and we're talking about divorce and one of the reasons earlier we were talking about how divorce affect kids and affects family, affects couple, and so, when it comes to children, what are you guys seeing in other people's relationship and how the divorce process affected those children?
Speaker 1:I think it depends. I think every situation is different and you know nobody knows the ins and outs of how they got to that. You know decision, except the two couple. And sometimes it could be good for the kids because then they don't see their kids I mean their parents arguing every day. It's not a toxic household and you know there's no like. It's just not something good for them to witness. And other times, you know, it could be good for the kids to have both parents in the house if they're able to amicably co-parent, you know, in a healthy, meaningful way.
Speaker 3:I think we talked about this in the planning of this episode that if the couple are mutually on the same page and the children are the main focus, they can do that right. So they have to really get their stuff out of the way and saying, okay, let's have a very healthy household for their kids so they can grow and have stability and support and love. And that's for the people. That we're not talking about like harmful experiences and abuse and other way. We're talking about just people who want to get divorced but they're staying together for their kids. And that does exist.
Speaker 3:And I also noticed that the relationship where there are couples who one of the couple would be involving their kids in this process of like parents, conflict Right by you know I don't know if you guys heard of this concept when there's like a parentified child, there's a child in that household, become the leader of the house. We can be the oldest child, can be the second, it doesn't really matter about the birth house. It can be the oldest child, it can be the second oldest, it doesn't really matter about the birth order, it can be one of the child who one of the parents will kind of like put them like as a mediation between them two and the way that also significantly affect that child growing around relationship, even with that person. It increases so much resentment and I think parents they're not aware, some parents I'm not saying all of them, but some parents are not really aware how their behavior, that they think that is supposed to be helping their relationship, is eventually also affect kids yeah.
Speaker 1:Or using their child as like a stick, as a pawn yes, yeah.
Speaker 3:As a pawn between them two and which, in a sense, what I've noticed is that, at least in my office, is that what I notice is that that child resents that parent so much that the relationship eventually being affected by it between that child and that parent like the way they navigate their conflict, their impairment even addressing issues that now I can't even have any coherent conversation with one of my parents because of that specific reason, and that is so normal for a lot of young kids. I wonder if there are like children and couples out there like handling conflict, what do you guys think is the best way to address conflict as a couple when you're addressing your issues?
Speaker 2:I, I'm sorry. I I hate to do this all the time, but I want to just go back a little bit and I will answer your question, just because I kind of was um, were you even listening to the whole montage?
Speaker 2:No, I was, I was, I was I was, and I think I just have more to add to it and just because I was kind of trying to make sure that we have a bigger, like not I don't say bigger picture, but a bigger, we are painting a bigger picture Because the reality of children of divorced parents is that the chances of them having unhealthy, or the risk of them having health issues, the risk of them having behavioral issues, the risk of them having even if it's amicable or not, of having mental health issues, kind of skyrockets.
Speaker 1:So you're saying kids who've divorced completely? Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Sorry, sorry, no. Divorced or separated parents Okay, regardless if it is amicable or not, regardless of if it's a healthy divorce or not, it skyrockets in a large margin. So saying that, and the reason why I want to go back to that before I answer your question, is that I think when people consider divorce again I'm only speaking to families or partners that are in a quote-unquote unabusive, you know like it's not a toxic marriage in the sense that it's not a threat to their safety, a threat to their mental health, and so on and so forth and they're just doing it because either they're falling out of love with each other or they're no longer compatible, and so on and so forth. So and I'm not saying again, I'm trying to be very careful here I'm not saying that is a minute reason or a not valid reason to divorce. I'm not saying again, I'm trying to be very careful here, I'm not saying that is a minute reason or a not valid reason to divorce. I'm just saying when it's regarding to this, I think to try harder.
Speaker 2:And when we were planning for this episode, I've talked about how the idea of making divorce the absolute last resort in these kinds of situations is the most healthiest thing to do for children?
Speaker 2:Um it, because we, we are protecting them from the. And also, you know, there was actually a statistic that I was just reading from the national Institute of national Institute of health, and they were talking about how, uh, children of divorced families also have the I think it's 1.2% increase in having a lower socioeconomic status than children of married couples. So we have to make sure that we are considering all of these things when we are taking the steps to separate the steps to get divorced, are taking the steps to separate the steps to get divorced, because if we can do anything to salvage this marriage, if we can do anything to come back to that, our healthy space, I think it is worth the fight, it's worth the try, no matter like how hard it is and so on and so forth, for the sake of the children. I think that is one thing I want to make sure that we emphasize. And then, when you said the impact of divorce on children, I think that was your question, or do you want to read it? I don't remember my question.
Speaker 2:The impacts of divorce on children and how that affects children. I think I do agree with you guys, when it is amicable and when it is um, it is better. I also think that, um, letting people, kids, know what happened in the most honest but like kindest way possible, without like, uh, pointing the finger. Well, if you have to point the finger, point the finger, but but honest, you know, like if a husband cheated or a wife cheated, say so yeah but if we don't, kids tend to put blame on themselves.
Speaker 2:They're, they are very much experts and very much prone to blame themselves for the problems and the issues of adults. So making sure that we are very clear that it's not their fault, it's not you know, and they have. They are like the best thing that could have come out of this marriage and they are the good part of this marriage, and making sure that we are emphasizing that this has nothing to do with them, and mommy and daddy love them and they are their priority. So I think that would be that is the most important focus and focal point.
Speaker 1:I will say that I do agree with you that you know you should always try to salvage the marriage for the kids. But I do also think that if the two parents you know whether it's emotionally or they're having just a hard time and I think sometimes we might downplay the emotional toll it has on a person to see this person day to day or to be in a marriage where you just don't feel alive so in that instance try as hard as you can. But even though Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala frowns upon divorce and it's probably one of the worst things you could do Allah frowns upon it it's still open for you. It's still an avenue that you can take, obviously trying to be as amicable as you can. I want to put that out there to our viewers that it does not diminish the person, both couple if they do decide to go that route.
Speaker 3:I think it's relationship is hard, yeah, and I think you want everybody who gets married they don't go into like I'm going to get divorced, and everybody wants their family together.
Speaker 3:I think even that idea of wanting to stay together and having stable relationship and raising kids in that household until they graduate and go to college and get married and that is the dream for everybody, right, we have to also bring in life into the situation and I don't think when anybody even though, especially when people are being married for more than five years, they don't take their relationship very lightly to come to a place of divorce unless that there is such a very difficult thing that they are unable to overcome and they probably try especially women try way more on trying to stay in that relationship at least in my picture, in my experiences to make sure that, like I want to do everything in my power to maintain this relationship and then when everything out of like she runs out of everything, all the things that she planned to do, that's when the divorce usually happens.
Speaker 3:So to say that you know what it's best for the kids to have a healthy mindset and healthy aspect of it. It would be great to have that, but the reality is that life does not always give us all of that, and I think it's okay to be able to say if you can't do it, if you can't, and that's also okay. And nobody, nobody, really really take it lightly to say I want to get a divorce because the the the emotional impact on both parties it's so devastating. Right, and nobody wants to go through that devastation. Like divorce in health, psychology, like death and divorce are the two highest things that cause a lot of significant stressors to people, and if it's like one and two, how would anybody take that chances to?
Speaker 3:do that unless, like you're really young and you haven't matured and you're like you don't understand. You got mad because this person didn't do what you want, but they said yes, and and I think, talaq, talaq, talaq, it's divorce, divorce, divorce. I divorce you.
Speaker 1:I divorce you. Oh, just like, yeah, they do, they do.
Speaker 3:And I think that is like really we have to address that. Allah talked about it, Allah has it for us, at least as a Muslim, and if Allah has made it okay for us to do it and he talked about it extensively the whole procedure of how to go through divorce. We don't need to kind of put zulm on one another if we don't have to. But the zulm is zulm, right. Zulm is like oppression, Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we don't have to oppress each other if we don't have to and it's usually like I want to say to the community if these two people have agreed to do this, then it's none of our business, that's true. It's none of our business to have comments to make them feel bad about it, to give our unwanted opinions. We need to give people grace and, I think, moving on to like after divorce and beyond talking about children, of divorce and how divorce impacts children.
Speaker 2:We want to also look out for how, if once we are divorced, how these things might have behavioral impacts on our children and how to spot that and if they need help.
Speaker 2:You know children tend to have anger outbursts and then also mental health, like you know, signs of depression, signs of anxiety, right, and then also mental health, like you know, a science of depression, science of anxiety, even health issues.
Speaker 2:You know children of divorced parents are more likely to have increased risk of asthma and injury rates, right, and then also separating, separation, anxiety, lack of empathy sometimes, and then also obviously, have be able to get in more, more physical educations in schools and their academic performance might be suffering. All of these are signs, regardless of how hard you're trying to not have the divorce have an impact and I'm saying this in a very weird way but grammatically incorrect way but have an impact on your children. If you are noticing these things, you know they're not acting out. These are. They're grieving. They're grieving what they had and these are symptoms that they might need a little bit more support and help, maybe even more than you could possibly offer. So I just want to make sure that we are pointing these things out, you know, to parents that are currently going through divorce and you know that needs to make sure that they are paying attention to these symptoms in their children.
Speaker 3:And then some children are also very internal experiencing this. They really shut down and so you get to. You see both what Bonnie was saying. And there are kids who are internalized experiences and they don't really kind of talk about it until later in life, until later. So both happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and one thing I also want to make sure that that I kind of have been reading on is that normally, kid children of divorced parents tend to have, tend to look at the marriage or the concept of marriage through the lenses of their parents. So, making sure that you have this conversation with your kids that this just didn't work out because mommy and daddy, you know, couldn't make it work or mommy and daddy weren't meant to be together, mommy and dad, you know, whatever the case is, it's not a conclusive decision on marriage. All marriage fail, right. The case is it's not a conclusive decision on marriage. All marriage fail, right. Because sometimes and most times, children tend to take that as the conclusion of what marriage will end up being and making them understand that, hey, you know, learn from my mistakes. Maybe I didn't communicate with your dad or your mom properly, maybe we, you know, we took each other for granted or whatever. And if you don't do the mistakes that we did, the chances of you and learning from us, the chances of you having a successful if that is what you want to do, the successful marriage is completely possible and it's not like you're doomed.
Speaker 2:Have you guys seen? Love is Blind Clay. He's, like my dad cheated. Therefore, I am going to cheat. What the heck the? It doesn't work like that you know so um yeah, just
Speaker 1:making sure you yeah anyway, I only do the heavy one. Yeah, like literally there's this guy.
Speaker 2:He was convinced that he was gonna possibly sometime cheat. Yeah, because his dad cheated and his parents got divorced.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so so this is also for the couples who are you know that divorce affect them too. It's like the grieving process of divorce. Is that something that I don't think? Us as a Muslim community, we talk about it often Like grieving meaning, like so there's we talked about grief on other episodes here where and that aspect of grief also affected ending of this type of relationship.
Speaker 3:Right, it's like the sadness of like you dreamed of being with this person for the rest of your life and now you realize that it didn't work out, and grieving that, grieving the life that you planned, the dream that you wanted to build with this person, giving yourself time to heal through the experiences of what happened in this relationship so that way that you'd be able to be more prepared in the next relationship.
Speaker 3:Right, that's part of the grief is like, okay, what do I learn about myself?
Speaker 3:What are something that it didn't work out?
Speaker 3:How did I handle some things in this relationship that I wanted to do better in the next relationship? Yeah, and I don't think we talk about like taking the time to go inward and giving yourself moments, even though I always recommend having to go through therapy and therapy is not just mental health therapy it's like when things doesn't work out for your life, and if you're able to and if you have the capacity for it and I think that's something that I really want people to like take it away out of this conversation is like I need to process a lot of things that happen and I'm still also blaming myself that my kids were never going to have both parents household or I was never going to be like that couple who goes to event together, because now I'm not part of the couple's thing anymore, because that relationship ended with the divorce as well. And also the dream of like e-dressing right, like I was not going to have e-pictures because now we're no longer married and so it's like going through those rollercoaster experiences with supported system.
Speaker 1:I believe that is the best way to kind of come out of it and it's okay to get remarried and if you really feel like that's something that you want to do for yourself and I would say the biggest support that you can do for yourself going through this is just holding on to the rope of a lot as well, you know, doing that spiritual healing and just making sure that that rope is tight Because you know it will be a roller coaster of emotions and you need an anchor to hold you down so that your foundation is unshakable yeah, and I think when we're talking about grieving grieving the relationship, grieving the hopes and dreams that you had for the relationship, we're also we can also talk about the, the tangible things that you are going to be losing, right?
Speaker 2:um, you can grieve the family that you had, you know, merged together his family, her family you might be really involved in, the parents lives over here or the sister, and no matter how much you want it to be, it's not going to be the same. No, right. So you can grieve. There's so many relationships that you grieve when that happens right, yeah uh sorry, go ahead. Okay yeah, when you are in those.
Speaker 3:So many relationships that you're going to grieve when that ends. Yeah, yeah, like families and his family, your family, your friends, your cousins, all of this combined, extended relationship that you have built in this relationship. Yes, that is so true. Nobody talks about that, because that itself I mean I can relate to that because that's probably. Nobody talks about that because that itself I mean I can relate to that because that's probably. I've experienced that even you, like you and the friends like friends yeah you lose that person and you would never be the same it's like.
Speaker 3:And then you would think, like wait, was our relationship only because of you two together, or or is it like more so because you two ended? That means that I'm also why are you divorcing me?
Speaker 1:You divorce her or?
Speaker 3:him, whatever. So that one is really big and nobody talks about it. Because you invest emotionally to the relationship of these people, yeah, and also definitely.
Speaker 2:And I also want to add that in our community, right the way we walk in community, you also grieve the peace that you have when you're walking in the community without anybody like oh.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that goes to my, and so another part is that I think part of today even though we have a little bit of time left is the remarrying after divorce conversation. I feel like do you guys want to talk about that or do we kind of like put it for later?
Speaker 1:I mean. What I will say on that is that it's not the end of the world. You know, allah already wrote your qadr long ago. So, regardless of where you are in life, just know that everything you are where you're meant to be and tomorrow will be a better day.
Speaker 2:And I know that sounds so cliche, but I'm just going to say if you have younger children, hold out as much as you can For both or just the wife.
Speaker 3:No both.
Speaker 2:I think if you have younger children, before introducing another person into their life, hold out as much as you can. I think we've also talked about this in other spaces the chances of a children getting SA'd.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's my biggest scoliosis. Let's not, let's not get into that whole. Yeah, that's, I'm just saying it's a reality. Yeah, that's the reality essayed, abused all of them increases.
Speaker 2:Mental health issues increase when children are introduced and in two steps and and there are obviously outliers and that are great step. Parents stem children um relationships. But when you are thinking of that, just make sure you are really, really considering your kids and investigating the person that is being introduced into their family.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Do you guys know that back home? Just as a tidbit is that like when like a spouse dies or like they kind of Don't say it.
Speaker 2:No, what do you mean? Go ahead, I just had a thought.
Speaker 1:No, like they don't say it. No, what do you mean? Go ahead, I. I just had a thought. No, like, so it's kind of opposite really. Like for these kids to grow up, they kind of bring in somebody that's already inside the family, like like the brother, yeah, like the brother, or something. Have you guys heard that?
Speaker 2:yeah, no, okay, we'll end it there no, it's, but can we please do the community because you talked about it and I touched on it like the dismantling, divorce and the community responsibility on that, or like just because I think that is the point of this whole conversation. It's like making sure, yes, the community does mind their own business, but sometimes don't mind your business in the sense that if you are coming in with support with you know shoulders, because all of a sudden these parents that again we're talking about divorced people that have children, these parents are now single parents, right? Single dad, single mom. If you can be of resource, if you can be of support, if you can be a babysitter, if you can be you know all of these things please be of support and you know a shoulder to cry on a shoulder to lean on um for our community members and stop judging these people because you don't know what allah has written for you and for your marriage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, I know I'm speaking a lot faster, but you guys can.
Speaker 3:You guys can add to that, I think you're absolutely. You're absolutely right. I think, even community wise, that we need to stop talking about people's you. You know experiences and kind of like. Everybody says this, but at the same time sometimes there's level of like intellectually, like understanding this behavior is negatively going to affect us. It's the idea of like you really don't know what happened to those people.
Speaker 1:And you don't need to know Exactly. You know what I mean. You don't need to know.
Speaker 3:But I feel like sometimes people who and just in generally want to gossip is like because they want to elevate their self, yeah, seeing somebody else suffer and I feel like imagine you're not that far away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, and it's not innocent, like, even like it's Nameema, right, like we say one little thing here and are you really willing to stand in front of allah on the day of judgment and and be questioned that you said x, y and z about somebody's relationship or you know whatever you thought happened, like that's absolutely insane yeah, I, I even don't even ask people that don't I don't ask.
Speaker 3:If you want to share and you want a space to talk about it, I can make space for you 100%. Yeah, I don't even want to like intrude on that, because the thing is that relationship is so protected and so sensitive and that we forget that we don't protect it in that way, except we know how to demolish it. Yeah, by talking about people's being how different are you?
Speaker 1:then she comes straight on. Then you know, I think just a caveat to that, the hobby is that how to demolish it by talking about people's being.
Speaker 2:And how different are you than Shifam Shaitan, than us? You know what I mean, I think.
Speaker 2:Just a caveat to that is that yes, not asking and not being, like you know, investigatory is important but I think making sure you allow that space and being like hey, I understand, this is a very sensitive issue for you if you feel like you need to talk to somebody about it, I'm here, but I'm not going to ask you about it or I'm not going to, you know, invade your privacy, then letting that person know that if they want to talk and if they're in that space to come to you. Last thing I want to say is that please don't tabloidize people that are divorced, because there is that thing oh my God, so-and-so and so-and-so is dating so-and-so, that has never been married. Does he know that she's divorced, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's horrible yeah, you know, and the idea that, like, um, I don't know, like, just because it didn't work out with someone else, it's not gonna work out with someone else, it's not true you know, and it tends to affect the woman more than yes it is the man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely, I feel like we have a lot.
Speaker 2:We need a part two. We have a lot of work to do. We do need that.
Speaker 3:We need that was really fast, but we got the points in yes and so we just want to take it away by saying that please be kind and understand that this is a challenging experience for many people and emphasize the important support system, because I think we do better when we are together and by supporting one another. I just want to encourage our listeners to just listen to this episode with empathy and open mind and I hope that you get what you needed out of this conversation. Hopefully it's the beginning and the more. Thank you so much for listening and this is a difficult conversation and, as always, comment and share with us your opinions.
Speaker 1:We always love to hear stories. Absolutely All right. This has been love to hear stories. Absolutely All right. This has been Waalik Salam. Oh, absolutely. Join the conversation in the comment section or on our Instagram page to share with us what you think. We do not have all the answers and our biggest goal is to kick off and get the conversation going. May Allah accept our efforts and use us as catalysts for change.